Italian/steel frames need more prep?

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike
shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between
departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly,

I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

G.T. wrote:
I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's
responsibility.

This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to
contractual responsibilities or business model. The bike shop is
responsible for what they sell to the customer, that is all the
customer is interested in. If that includes work at the bike shop
to prep the frame that should be in the shop's business model...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike
shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between
departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly,
and there is no advantage to having bike shops do it one-by-one, unlike
custom parts specs, where the shop has the competitive advantage of
having the customer (who may have unusually long arms and a singleminded
desire for a MegaExo BB) in front of them and the ability to choose from
a wide range of parts. If frames aren't coming square from the factory
(especially if they're Ti) then heaven help us. We used to accept
horizontal dropouts mainly because the framebuilders couldn't do
vertical dropouts accurately, but they got over that.

I suspect one reason facing is no longer done on many frames is that it
sometimes causes the paint to peel away, and the manufacturer would rather
have that "blame" fall elsewhere. If it happens at the manufacturer, they
might see the need to repaint it. If it happens at the shop? Then they'll
claim it's the shop's fault.

What, me, cynical?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it
won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

Ron

You beat me to it. Wonder if there are any more of those T-shirts around
with "Lucas Electrics- Prince of Darkness" on them?

Until the last magdyno goes dim, there will always be a Lucas-jibing
novelty t-shirt.

True story: I helped my father rewind a magneto for his 1958 AJS by
hand. A magneto has about a mile of hair-fine wire (actually, slightly
finer than a human hair) in it. Fortunately, an instrument tech at his
place of work taught him a technique for welding wire breaks using a
lighter.

More relevant to this thread: the fun thing about mid-1960s motorcycle
magazines is how they referred to various bikes as "very oil-tight" or
"especially oil-tight." Then the Japanese motorcycles arrived, andy
everyone discovered that "oil-tight" didn't need an adjective. They just
didn't leak oil.

Here's my thoughts on this matter of soulful frames:

1) soul is shorthand for "my riding buddies are impressed by
heritagenous Italian frame names."

2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike
shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between
departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly,
and there is no advantage to having bike shops do it one-by-one, unlike
custom parts specs, where the shop has the competitive advantage of
having the customer (who may have unusually long arms and a singleminded
desire for a MegaExo BB) in front of them and the ability to choose from
a wide range of parts. If frames aren't coming square from the factory
(especially if they're Ti) then heaven help us. We used to accept
horizontal dropouts mainly because the framebuilders couldn't do
vertical dropouts accurately, but they got over that.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition
of how
things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no
idea of
that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes
than
ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company
qc rep
says make it look like so, and it does.

But if you truly do lay out all the relevant specs, not just the ones that
determine that it looks like a BSO (bike shaped object), the factory that
had never built anything but lawnchairs before might, with a bit of time,
learn how to build a very nice bike. It can be done.

The Chinese didn't now zip about computer equipment not that long ago. Now?
That's where an awful lot of stuff comes from. They didn't initially learn
by themselves; they were told what to make, and how. Eventually they evolved
and learned and essentially backward-engineered things and can be counted on
to come out with original designs and techniques. But for now, they're
producing stuff that works, without having a long history of having worked
with that type of equipment. Just spec sheets and people teaching them how.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:45:10 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

wrote:

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

But it's not just about what is produced, but also what is demanded. The
general public doesn't seem to care about what's under the hood... they
just
want a pretty paint job. The smallest flaw in the paint becomes far more
important than anything else you might try to show and/or explain to
somebody. This disconnect is extreme between new (customers) & old-world
(traditional craftsman) thinking... the craftsman is often more concerned
with how things have always been, and making something that is extremely
functional. This contrasts with the Asian model, which seems to focus
first
on something that appears to be superior (because the outside appearance
is
the easiest for people to judge) and only later does quality become a
major
issue.

A lot probably has to do with why they're building the bike, or rather how
it is
they ended up making bikes instead of lighting trusses or landing gear or
exhaust manifolds.

There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition
of how
things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no
idea of
that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes
than
ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company
qc rep
says make it look like so, and it does.

There may also me a benevolent form of inexperience at work. The emeging
country
manufacturers aren't confident of just what they can get away with.

Ron

The public, given a choice between something that's cheap and appears
high-quality, and something that costs more, is higher-quality but doesn't
appear much different... well, you and I both know which they'll want to
buy.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
roups.com...

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I
noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed,
sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the
headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the
axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's
virtually
no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset!
There's
slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube
looks
plain discolored and ugly.

This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel
are
different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed
if I
were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep
required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little
workmanship
pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

Phil, you were generous enough to share with us who made the badly
preped frame.
Mid sharing who made the $200 well preped frame?
I'd like a non-smelly frame 8-)

In article
. com,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote:

[...]

In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just
about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US,
depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small
builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's
because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship.
They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia...

Canada? Marinoni falls into which set? I have a five year
old built-to-order steel frame that came clean from them.

--
Michael Press

"Helmut Springer" wrote in message
...
G.T. wrote:
I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's
responsibility.

This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to
contractual responsibilities or business model.

I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the
"Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right"
business model.

Greg

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:51:16 -0800, "G.T." wrote:


"Helmut Springer" wrote in message
...
G.T. wrote:
I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's
responsibility.

This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to
contractual responsibilities or business model.

I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the
"Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right"
business model.

What's the system that promotes the "do what's right" model?

Ron

"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:51:16 -0800, "G.T."
wrote:


"Helmut Springer" wrote in message
...
G.T. wrote:
I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's
responsibility.

This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to
contractual responsibilities or business model.

I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the
"Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right"
business model.

What's the system that promotes the "do what's right" model?


Basic ethical living?

Greg

A lot probably has to do with why they're building the bike, or rather how it is
they ended up making bikes instead of lighting trusses or landing gear or
exhaust manifolds.

There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition of how
things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no idea of
that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes than
ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company qc rep
says make it look like so, and it does.

Does China not have a long history of bike building? Afterall, there
are probably more bikes in daily use in China at least in an absolute
sense, though perhaps not a per capita sense compared to various, much
smaller cycling havens, than anywhere else in the world.

Where did all those bikes come from before China started making bikes
for export to the rest of the world on behalf of XYZ-Megacorp?

Here's an interesting page I just found via google:

http://www.imperialtours.net/bicycle.htm

I suppose the start of their domestic bicycle industry in the 1930s
doesn't sound as "organic" or soulful as Italian or whatever builders
making one-offs for their racing clientele. But 70+ years of
manufacturing something invented 120+ years ago (the safety bike anyway)
still seems like a decently long history.

There may also me a benevolent form of inexperience at work. The emeging country
manufacturers aren't confident of just what they can get away with.

Or they manufacture to David Pye's "workmanship of certainty" rather
than the "workmanship of risk" that may form the basis of the "soul" of
the Italian frame being discussed. Either way, the end result is still
important. If the end result is incorrect, incomplete or otherwise in
need of significant re-work, it is still *bad* workmanship, regardless
of how much "soul" went into making it.