Italian/steel frames need more prep?

WARNING: Offensive racial content forthcoming.

Warning or not, I don't think it's something that should be repeated. With a
small amount of creativity you might come up with something that has the
same acronym and is funny, without using verbiage that we'd be better off
seeing go away.

I used to think you couldn't do away with racism by keeping thoughts in a
closet. That's true for the current generation, but as new generations grow
up in an environment where such things aren't common, they don't consider
such things as being tacitly approved and something they feel comfortable
with themselves. In other words, the "thought police" can actually have a
beneficial effect down the road. Obviously, things can get carried away;
there are limits and reasonable places to stop.

This is so seriously off-topic it serves to remind me that it was my own
fault the thread strayed in the first place. There are reasons why this is a
place for discussing things having to do with bicycles, and not automotive
acronyms. My bad.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:10:24 GMT, Bob wrote:

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:09:55 +0100, Dave Larrington
wrote:

FIAT- Fix it again Tony
FORD- Fix or repair daily

Don't know the rest of 'em. Anybody have some to add?

Gotta Mechanic Coming...

FORD - Found on road dead


WARNING: Offensive racial content forthcoming.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

WARNING: Offensive racial content forthcoming.

Warning or not, I don't think it's something that should be repeated. With a
small amount of creativity you might come up with something that has the
same acronym and is funny, without using verbiage that we'd be better off
seeing go away.

I used to think you couldn't do away with racism by keeping thoughts in a
closet. That's true for the current generation, but as new generations grow
up in an environment where such things aren't common, they don't consider
such things as being tacitly approved and something they feel comfortable
with themselves. In other words, the "thought police" can actually have a
beneficial effect down the road. Obviously, things can get carried away;
there are limits and reasonable places to stop.

This is so seriously off-topic it serves to remind me that it was my own
fault the thread strayed in the first place. There are reasons why this is a
place for discussing things having to do with bicycles, and not automotive
acronyms. My bad.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


Thank you very much, Mike. Well said.

--
Ted Bennett

"41" wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

I think you meant "Commies". The commies, aka the socialists, tend to
pay better wages- to workers, that is- than the capitalists.

Yeah, just look at the textbook case - North Korea and South Korea.
The wealth in the north is so splendid compared to the poverty and
starving in the south... NOT.

Instead of just looking at the textbook, how about actually READING the
textbook? Or how about reading ANY textbook? Perhaps one on South
Korean economic history? South Korea IS the socialist country of the
pair:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/chaebol.htm

Try to make it at least a third of the way down the page, say from
Samsung to Hyundai to Daewoo. I think you might get it by then.

Yeah, living there for a couple years (and working as a subcontractor
to Samsung) doesn't compare to googling for data. LOL.

Now perhaps you wanna get off the rabit trail and show us how the
starving millions in the north get "better wages" than those in the
south? I'd LOVE to see that data (since it would mean N. Korea is one
of the wealthiest nations in Asia, at the very least).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

I think you meant "Commies". The commies, aka the socialists, tend to
pay better wages- to workers, that is- than the capitalists.

Yeah, just look at the textbook case - North Korea and South Korea.
The wealth in the north is so splendid compared to the poverty and
starving in the south... NOT.

Instead of just looking at the textbook, how about actually READING the
textbook? Or how about reading ANY textbook? Perhaps one on South
Korean economic history? South Korea IS the socialist country of the
pair:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/chaebol.htm

Try to make it at least a third of the way down the page, say from
Samsung to Hyundai to Daewoo. I think you might get it by then.

Yeah, living there for a couple years (and working as a subcontractor
to Samsung) doesn't compare to googling for data. LOL.

Now perhaps you wanna get off the rabit trail and show us how the
starving millions in the north get "better wages" than those in the
south?

That's not the contention, Mark. The contention is that South Korea is
the true Socialist state of the two. I.E., The Socialist state pays
better wages than the other (psuedo-Marxist) state.



I'd LOVE to see that data (since it would mean N. Korea is one
of the wealthiest nations in Asia, at the very least).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

41 wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

Yeah, just look at the textbook case - North Korea and South Korea.
The wealth in the north is so splendid compared to the poverty and
starving in the south... NOT.

Instead of just looking at the textbook, how about actually READING
the textbook? Or how about reading ANY textbook? Perhaps one on
South Korean economic history? South Korea IS the socialist country
of the pair:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/chaebol.htm

Try to make it at least a third of the way down the page, say from
Samsung to Hyundai to Daewoo. I think you might get it by then.

Yeah, living there for a couple years (and working as a subcontractor
to Samsung) doesn't compare to googling for data.

I didn't Google for data, I did it to provide you with a reference.
You were the one who talked about " just look at the textbook case"; I
suggested that instead of just LOOKING at a textbook, you might try
READING one.

But as for your contention that living there and working as a
subcontractor for Samsung provided you with a better vantage point:
let's see. By doing that, did you learn about Samsung's history, in
other words how it got to be what it is? Obviously not, because you
would have known that it got that way by means of central planning and
special privileges from the central government. Likewise for Hyundai,
Daewoo, and others, as detailed in that web reference. You may have
been there on the ground, but what you obviously lacked was a view
from the top. Otherwise known as being unable to see the forest for
the trees. Since you can't actually read a whole article, here is a
choice exerpt from the above "textbook":

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samsung's companies benefited from the import-substitution policy that
the government pursued. Domestic producers were encouraged and imports
were discouraged. By the end of the 1950's Lee had acquired control of
several commercial banks and insurance companies.

In 1961 Park Chung Hee carried out a military coup d'etat and
immediately staged an anticorruption campaign. Lee was in Japan at the
time and initially refused to return to South Korea because he knew
he, as the richest man in South Korea, would be a prime target of
Park's campaign. Later Lee returned to Seoul and struck a deal with
Park that became the model for South Korea's chaebol. Samsung would
be allowed to remain in business but it would have to be the vehicle
for carrying out the development projects that Park wanted. Park was
somewhat of a puzzle when he siezed power. When American government
officials found that Park in his younger days had not only joined a
communist cell, but had been, in fact, the organizer of the cell,
they thought that the Communists had taken control of South Korea.
Park had a fondness for collectivist-type slogans such as "Enrich the
Nation and Strengthen the Army!" and "Steel is National Power."

Lee offered to donate most of his wealth to the government and accept
expropriation of his bank shares. Also he agreed to gain the
cooperation of other businessmen in promoting Park's development
projects.

The chaebol benefited greatly from this arrangement but the nature of
the economic system of South Korea was closer to a centrally planned
socialist state than the capitalism that it purported to be. The
success of Samsung or any of the other chaebol in selling products
cannot be taken to be proof of their success in profit making. It
could just as well be a result of the South Korean government
subsidizing in one way or another a money-losing venture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now perhaps you wanna get off the rabit trail and show us how the
starving millions in the north get "better wages" than those in the
south?

You're not listening (as usual). North Korea is not socialist. Since
you know so much about these things, you may recall that the slogan of
The Communist Manifesto- incidentally the state motto of the former
USSR, and the inscription on their coat of arms- is "Workers of the
World, Unite!" By contrast, the state motto of North Korea is "F-off
world!", more or less. It sounds better in Korean. That, plus the
fact that now they are mid-stream in the switch to the Chinese system
of political oppression + state capitalism, means they are right up
your alley.

So do you think that steel Korean frames would have slag all over over them
and paint all up in the threads?
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

So do you think that steel Korean frames would have slag all over over them
and paint all up in the threads?

Ah well, I suppose Habanero will be providing proof of concept shortly.
But only for the Chinese-style capitalist North, where labour will be
dirt cheap, even cheaper than in China, not from the socialist South,
where workers have rights and unions and a rather higher standard of
living. I guess North Korea will soon be to China what China became for
Taiwan.

The odd thing is, regarding Italian steel frames: back in the old days,
when frames came overwhelmingly from either France, Italy or England,
everyone always talked about how only the Italians managed the
synthesis of craftsmanship, design and fine finish; how French paint
jobs just couldn't compare, etc. Now I hear only complaints about the
lousy Italian paint jobs and brazing and filing from those days.

One of the most beautiful bikes I ever saw from those days was a Fuji
Ace. Orange over chrome, black Dura Ace (although black would not
appeal to me now). About $500, if I recall. At the seat binder lug was
a huge gob of slag, under the orange paint. I couldn't figure that one
out.

"Ozark Bicycle" wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

I think you meant "Commies". The commies, aka the socialists, tend to
pay better wages- to workers, that is- than the capitalists.
major snippage

That's not the contention, Mark. The contention is that South Korea is
the true Socialist state of the two. I.E., The Socialist state pays
better wages than the other (psuedo-Marxist) state.

Nope - the contention that "41" is stated directly above, through the
magic of snippage. His statement is silly, and I was just pointing
that out. He's trying to rabbit trail the discussion to cover up that
fact.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

"41" wrote:

A lot of unrelated information.

The assertion you make is that commies pay better wages to the workers
than the capitalists.

I used Korea as the best "all things otherwise equal" example - one
that clearly refutes your assertion.

Your defense is to try to quibble about the definition of communist
and capitalist, trying to deny the obvious fact that the two Koreas
are obvious examples of each.

That IMHO is absurd, and a waste of bandwidth.

The short version: "whatever". This thread is on ingore so I don't
have to waste any more time on it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey wrote:
"Ozark Bicycle" wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

I think you meant "Commies". The commies, aka the socialists, tend to
pay better wages- to workers, that is- than the capitalists.
major snippage

That's not the contention, Mark. The contention is that South Korea is
the true Socialist state of the tw o. I.E., The Socialist state pays
better wages than the other (psuedo-Marxist) state.

Nope - the contention that "41" is stated directly above, through the
magic of snippage.

The magic of snippage, indeed. The "socialists" I cited were Sweden,
France, &c. That was one contention. Counting up to two, after you
brought up the Koreas, indeed I did also point out (contend? how about
prove) that South Korea is the socialist state of the two, and they do
pay better wages than the now nascent Chinese-style capitalist North.
So by the way, when can we be expecting you to be sourcing titanium
frames from them?

Mark Hickey wrote:
"41" wrote:

A lot of unrelated information.

Oh, you mean the part that proved you were wrong.

The benefit I gain from such threads on occasion, is the clear picture
of how, what is it now, 36% and dropping of the American population
thinks and operates. I guess you will be the last holdout.


Your defense is to try to quibble about the definition of communist
and capitalist, trying to deny the obvious fact that the two Koreas
are obvious examples of each.

But which one is which... as the histories of Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo,
the other Chaebol, and of the rule of Park Chung Hee demonstrate, South
Korea is an obvious example of a socialist economy, while North Korea,
once a third kind, is now a nascent example of Chinese-style state
capitalism and political oppression. So by the way, when can we be
expecting you to be sourcing titanium frames from them? After all,
North Korea will soon be to China what China was to Taiwan: a low-wage,
no workers-rights, politically oppressive, state-capitalist economy,
aka the American right wing zealot capitalist's dream.

The short version: "whatever". This thread is on ingore so I don't
have to waste any more time on it.

Indeed. After embarassing yourself so thoroughly in it and backing
yourself into such a tight corner, I can see why. I understand your
chum President Bush is for the same reason putting even more than usual
on "ignore" these days too. t