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#91
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 22:01, Pamela wrote:
On 20:07 5 Aug 2020, TMS320 said: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. In other words, a shifting rucksack packed with groceries will destabilise a cyclist. If it is more than he can compensate for then he will fall off. Q.E.D. It would. Just as it would for someone walking or running. People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. |
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#92
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
I agree, I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; apart from that a sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own. I also use panniers routinely. Sometimes a backpack is needed. Seems little point in arguing over it. Non-cyclists without a clue? |
#93
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift. |
#94
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 06/08/2020 10:23, Simon Mason wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift. I once rode with one of my children's school bags that only had one diagonal shoulder strap. That was irritating because it kept trying to slide round my body. When walking I use a bag with a chest strap to pull the two shoulder straps together to reduce gait induced swing. The only problem with heavy loads on a bike is that the weight makes handling and the process of getting on the bike awkward. When it's working as a bike, the forces make the loads stay in the plane of the bike (like an aeroplane, not a car). Nothing shifts. |
#95
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 10:23 6 Aug 2020, Simon Mason said:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift. Maybe that works for a tins of Carlsberg and frozen fish fingers but any soft groceries would get crushed by tight straps. |
#96
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 20:41, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 20:21, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Â* Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Â* Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". A raised centre of gravity affects stability adversely, if that's what you prefer. A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability. It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. How interesting. Do you still dispute that raising the centre of gravity of a person on a bicycle will adversely affect (or "worsen") the stability of that person on the bike? Your answer will suffice in the form of a "Yes" or a "No". Keep your mind tightly closed if you insist. I shan't take that as either a "Yes" or a "No". I'll take it as an "I don't dare answer for fear of looking even siller". |
#97
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 19:21:09 GMT, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: [] A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability. I agree, Thank you. TMS320 doesn't agree, though. I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; Yes, I can see the advantages in that. apart from that a sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own. Seems little point in arguing over it. I didn't expect anyone to dispute that a raised centre of gravity increases instability / decreases stability. But there's always one. Let's get try discussing momentum. Extra mass = extra momentum? That computes. |
#98
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 06/08/2020 09:23, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote: I agree, I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; apart from that a sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own. I also use panniers routinely. Sometimes a backpack is needed. Seems little point in arguing over it. Non-cyclists without a clue? It seems that it is a confirmed cyclist who doesn't believe that raising the centre of gravity decreases stability. |
#99
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 23:08, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:01, Pamela wrote: On 20:07Â* 5 Aug 2020, TMS320 said: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. In other words, a shifting rucksack packed with groceries will destabilise a cyclist.Â* If it is more than he can compensate for then he will fall off.Â* Q.E.D. It would. By George... Just as it would for someone walking or running. People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. What made you change your mind and start accepting the basic rules of physics as taught to us in the first year at grammar school? |
#100
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 06/08/2020 10:23, Simon Mason wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done up properly. That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift. But your centre of gravity is still higher than it would be without the back-pack, so this later "do the straps up tight" wriggle doesn't work. |
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