OT--reflectors on wheelchairs

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:04:18 -0800 (PST), Chalo
wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

ISTM that expecting pedestrians, including wheelchair-bound
pedestrians, to don flashing lights, reflective clothing, etc. is high
handed and presumptuous. If you're in a car, it is your DUTY to drive
so you can avoid people who are walking. That's true even if they are
walking (or rolling) at night. If you can't stop before hitting an
African man dressed all in black, you're driving too fast.

The world did not come into existence for the convenience of
motorists. People should be able to walk (or roll their wheelchair,
or ride their bicycle) to any destination they like, using reasonable
courtesy.

If their passing interferes with your motoring, it's likely that
you're demanding too much privilege. Slow down.

Hear, hear!

Even the simplest ethical analysis dictates that motorists bear both
responsibility for the harm they inflict upon non-motorists, and the
duty to prevent such harm. Yet we as a society and a legal
institution seem to be incapable of applying even the simplest ethics
to motor vehicles and those who use them.

Chalo

How much Ford, GM and Daimler stock do you own? Got any Shell, Exxon
or Mobil in your portfolio?

yeah, me too.

As a society we have been directed and molded by advertising and
entertainment to cede our humanity to automobiles and their requisite
infrastructure.

Now that we've cut ourselves off from social interaction by distances
and norms requiring containerised individual motor transport we're
powerless in the face of radical change. We are no longer united in
any meaningful ways. We know sit-com characters better than we know
our neighbours. We've become slaves to our cars and the blood suckers
who really own most of them. As cyclists, we're subject to mob rule.

It ain't gonna get any prettier even, or maybe "especially", _if_
abiotic oil is real.

Abiotic oil means prolonged craziness. Peak oil mean mass craziness
when the whole sprawl collapses.

No dose of Dramamine will stave off the car-sickness that is our
second greatest folly next to war.
--
zk

wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 1:04 am, wrote:
On Jan 3, 6:34 pm, "ilaboo" wrote:

here in teh bronx almost all the motorized wheelchairs i see have no
refectors anywhere on them

what about your experience?

Here is San Jose the other day I saw a guy in just such a wheelchair,
no relectors, no lights, no nothing.
And he was going against traffic, in the BIKE LANE... if I hadn't been
in my car and late for my massage,
I woulda said something!

ISTM that expecting pedestrians, including wheelchair-bound
pedestrians, to don flashing lights, reflective clothing, etc. is high
handed and presumptuous.

I disagree. If it's dark, as a pedestrian you have a responsibility to being
seen by others. This is especially true on multi-use trails, or those who
walk on the street. (Here, there are very few sidewalks, so nearly all
pedestrians walk on the street; I walk on the bike lane on one minor
arterial because where a sidewalk should be is either sloped or has
shrubbery.) It doesn't need to be as bright and noticeable as what you wear
cycling, because your speed is slower, but you do have a responsibility to
wear something. Even a small reflective sliver on your shoes, or a little
bit of reflective piping on your backpack makes a *huge* difference. I found
that someone wearing some keys on their belt loop that reflected my bike's
headlight meant that I could see him at maybe a 100 yards rather than at 10
feet. It doesn't have to be a lot -- but it should be something. I have very
little sympathy for people who wear dark colored clothing and don't carry a
flashlight or similar who walk on MUTs or the street. And yes, those with a
dark complexion, people of say, African or South Asian heritage are even
harder to see than those with lighter complexion, like those of European or
East Asian heritage, and should take more care in what they wear. You say,
"slow down", but heck, I'm probably only going 12 mph, and I can't further
slow down upon approach if I can't see them to slow down. How slow do you
want me to ride because some yahoo *might* be walking on the shoulder and
can't be bothered to make herself visible?


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Claire Petersky wrote:
How slow do you want me to ride

Slow enough to be able to brake in your range of sight, standard
rule for all vehicles.


--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei

Quoth Frank Krygowski:

ISTM that expecting pedestrians, including *wheelchair-bound
pedestrians, to don flashing lights, reflective clothing, etc. is high
handed and presumptuous. *If you're in a car, it is your DUTY to drive
so you can avoid people who are walking. *That's true even if they are
walking (or rolling) at night. *If you can't stop before hitting an
African man dressed all in black, you're driving too fast.

The world did not come into existence for the convenience of
motorists. *People should be able to walk (or roll their wheelchair,
or ride their bicycle) to any destination they like, using reasonable
courtesy.

If their passing interferes with your motoring, it's likely that
you're demanding too much privilege. *Slow down.

Amen, brother!

Mine has no lights, and so far I haven't found any convenient place to
mount one, but I basically use it as a pedestrian. When I'm outdoors
on it, I'm generally on sidewalks or crosswalks.

However, sometimes when I park my car in the middle of a block, I'll
have to ride in the street to get to a curb cut. I do admit it is
sometimes a bit scary at night.

Sheldon "Scooter" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| I'm Sheldon Brown, and I approved this message. |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com
Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
http://sheldonbrown.com

John Hockenberry (former NPR reporter and a long-time wheelchair user)
has some sort of flashing motion-activated spokey dokey things on his
wheels. (He was on the cover of Parade with his family, and the
article called out these accessories.)

Sold in the bicycle-shaped-object departments of big box stores.

HTH

--Karen D.

Peter & All,
My problem is that I agree with everyone...when I'm cycling I'm lit up
like a Christmas tree, for my safety and for the sake of the
carelessly thoughtless person who probably doesn't want my death on
their conscience, but then it seems that the more lights, the more I'm
a target for the goons with the Pepsi bottles who think it's funny to
throw them at a lone, defenseless cyclist.
When I'm driving, I'm shocked and dismayed to just barely see those
ghosts at night, whether on cycles or motor-chairs with absolutely
NOTHING to indicate their presence, and I think Peter is onto
something...maybe they really don't value their own lives...but I
don't want to be the instrument of their suicide.
I like riding my bike fast, but I catch myself when driving realizing
that I've just turned right into a parking lot without checking one
more time in the rear-view mirror for a cyclist going ProTour speeds
in the bike lane behind me, without lights. It's easy to say 'he was
going too fast since he couldn't stop' , but I think the real problem
is that we have irreconcilable differences...and we're just plain old-
fashioned selfish.
Mr Zoot has it right, we've grown up in these motorized boxes that
separate us from our peers. I'll share something...when the goons
tossed the Pepsi bottle at me the other night at 10 pm, in a rather
nice, expensive neighborhood, there was absolutely no one else on the
street. In my wife's hometown in Mexico, 10 pm in a rather nice
neighborhood, there are more people on the street than you can count!
Anti-social behavior not only gets frowned upon, you're likely to be
surrounded by little old grannies who want to pinch your ears for
doing something like that! But I NEVER see that kind of community
policing by grannies in the USA. Because we're all separate in our
boxes.

I see no resolution to this, except to rent George Hincappie's South
Carolina cyclist preserve where you can cycle to your heart's content
with no motor vehicles allowed. And how practical is that?
http://www.pladadet.com/

Sighing,
ABS

On Jan 5, 2:53 pm, wrote:
Peter & All,
My problem is that I agree with everyone...

Wow. That will never do for Usenet! ;-)

when I'm cycling I'm lit up like a Christmas tree, ...
When I'm driving, I'm shocked and dismayed to just barely see those
ghosts at night, whether on cycles or motor-chairs with absolutely
NOTHING to indicate their presence,...

For the record, I think the regulations for, and attitudes toward,
cyclists should be different from that for peds (including wheelchair
users). Handily, my attitudes pretty well match the laws. IOW,
cyclists are required to have lights and reflectors, and I agree with
that. Peds are not required to, and I agree with that.

Walking is THE fundamental means of travel. I can't accept that
walkers should be given the hassle of carrying lights for the
convenience of motorists. Motorists have headlights. Let them drive
within the headlights' range. Especially any place pedestrians are
likely to be walking.

Mr Zoot has it right, we've grown up in these motorized boxes that
separate us from our peers. I'll share something...when the goons
tossed the Pepsi bottle at me the other night at 10 pm, in a rather
nice, expensive neighborhood, there was absolutely no one else on the
street. In my wife's hometown in Mexico, 10 pm in a rather nice
neighborhood, there are more people on the street than you can count!
Anti-social behavior not only gets frowned upon, you're likely to be
surrounded by little old grannies who want to pinch your ears for
doing something like that! But I NEVER see that kind of community
policing by grannies in the USA. Because we're all separate in our
boxes.

I agree. (More anti-Usenet behavior there!) And in dozens of
European cities, I've seen the same thing: people out and about on
bikes or on foot at all hours. Motorists allowed _much_ less
dominance. In fact, our hosts during one visit said walking in their
city was transformed when the law made it _very_ tough on a driver if
he hit a pedestrian in a crosswalk.

I see no resolution to this...

I think the solution is to change attitudes. Discussions like this
help. Forming advocacy groups for non-motorized road users helps.
Lobbying for changes in laws, promoting non-motorized transportation,
organizing biking or walking events, all these can help. Society is a
living thing; it can be changed.

BTW, anybody know how to best organize a Volksmarch?

- Frank Krygowski

"Helmut Springer" wrote in message
...

Slow enough to be able to brake in your range of sight, standard
rule for all vehicles.

The range of sight would be increased by probably twentyfold if people wore
the teeniest amount of reflective anything. It isn't that hard to do - both
the city and the county passes out free reflective stickers and similar for
anyone who wants one. Further, many backpacks, athletic shoes, etc. have
reflective piping or tabs. You can buy a light-up blinkie arm band for a
dollar at the discount store. You can carry a flashlight.

Do you think bicyclists should similarly use the roads without any sort of
lights or reflective anything? Or do they have a responsibility to take
actions be seen as well? What about cars?

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Claire Petersky wrote:
Slow enough to be able to brake in your range of sight, standard
rule for all vehicles.

The range of sight would be increased by probably twentyfold if
people wore the teeniest amount of reflective anything.

Negative. There could always be something or someone that, for
whatever reason, isn't featuring something reflective. You're happy
to run into something someone dropped, a pothole, an animal, a
person that did not plan to be there, whatever?


Do you think bicyclists should similarly use the roads without any
sort of lights or reflective anything?

Bicycles qualify as vehicles, at night on public roads one typically
demands those to feature lights and that's easy to do. Vehicles go
sufficiently fast and are heavy enough to impose risks to others and
thus have to take extra measures to compensate such risks.


--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei

For the record, I think the regulations for, and attitudes toward,
cyclists should be different from that for peds (including wheelchair
users). Handily, my attitudes pretty well match the laws. IOW,
cyclists are required to have lights and reflectors, and I agree with
that. Peds are not required to, and I agree with that.

If you're in a wheelchair, you're not a pedestrian because you are traveling
on wheels. And, if your wheelchair is in the street with the cars, you're
endangering yourself by being difficult to see.


Walking is THE fundamental means of travel. I can't accept that
walkers should be given the hassle of carrying lights for the
convenience of motorists. Motorists have headlights. Let them drive
within the headlights' range. Especially any place pedestrians are
likely to be walking.

How about walkers should be given the hassle of carrying lights to protect
their health andk well-being, especially when they are walking in the
street. Or, how about pedestrians shouldn't be likely to be walking in the
streets?

We all have the responsibility to protect ourselves by making ourselves
visible to vehicle drivers. If a person is using wheels, he is a vehicle.
Sure, he may not go fast, but those farm tractors on the Texas country roads
still have reflectors while they're going 5 mph. And so do those buggies in
Amish country. It's not a "hassle" to be smart and make yourself less likely
to be in an accident. Like I said earlier, I might have nightmares, but the
other guy won't because he'll be dead!

Pat in TX

Pat in TX