Federal Investigation widened...

On 5/26/2010 2:46 PM, B. Lafferty wrote:
On 5/26/2010 3:40 PM, Fred Flintstein wrote:
On 5/26/2010 1:02 PM, B. Lafferty wrote:
On 5/26/2010 1:39 PM, F. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
==========
It's more and more becoming a 'he said, they said' thing
==========

There was a time it wasn't? Seriously?

Until someone finds a money trail, that's all this is, and all this
has ever been.


Dumbass -

There are people on this group who are trying to assert that it is more
than that. One of those idiots (Laff@me) tried to liken it to BALCO,
but
BALCO started off with a syringe and blood (DNA evidence). It continued
because BALCO was a drug manufacturing enterprise with a facility in
Burlingame, California, employees, client lists full of professional
athletes from a whole range of North American professional sports (even
cycling w/ Tammy Thomas), lab technicians, etc.

Lotsa hard evidence.

In the LANCE/Flandis situation, without the paper trail, there's not
even anything to show (outside of he-said/she-said) that a crime has
occurred, except Flandis' positive dope test at the TdF, but that test
1) happened outside the US and 2) points at Flandis, not LANCE.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.
Speak for yourself dickhead. The only similarity I've pointed out
between BALCO and Armstrong is the involvement of Novitsky.

As to proving cases in court, time will tell what is developed. It's
amazing the kinds of tracks even the most careful people leave. Try to
get it though your head into that pea sized brain of yours that the
interest the Feds have centers on fraudulent use of US government monies
and fraud in the procurement of an insurance policy from SCA Promotions
worth $5million+.

I wonder if any of Lance's teammates took photos to share down the road.
Maybe they saved txt messages, voicemails, emails. It's early on in the
investigations. I will tell you that the US Attorney in the Northern
District of California has the reputation for publicizing arrests of
high profile individuals. Check out his web site.

IIRC, Thom Weisel has dealt with this US Attorney's office before. It
could be something of a reunion.

Dumbass, two questions:

- Did you come as you typed that?

- Aren't you the guy that said the feds would be coming
after flandis for hacking the French lab's computer?

Fred Flintstein

Well Flintstone, I recall a discussion about the French authorities and
their issuance of an arrest warrant for Landis. There was some question
as to whether or not it was an international arrest warrant--I recall it
was not. I don't recall the French government seeking the enforcement of
their warrant here in the US, do you?

Dumbass,

My kid would do that when she was a toddler. If I asked her
a question she didn't want to answer, she'd answer a
different, easier question.

Fred Flintstein

PS The feds are coming after flandis for hacking the French
lab's computer.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ce37b869dc2703
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...1daaa8334b698a

On 5/26/2010 4:12 PM, Fred Flintstein wrote:
On 5/26/2010 2:46 PM, B. Lafferty wrote:
On 5/26/2010 3:40 PM, Fred Flintstein wrote:
On 5/26/2010 1:02 PM, B. Lafferty wrote:
On 5/26/2010 1:39 PM, F. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
==========
It's more and more becoming a 'he said, they said' thing
==========

There was a time it wasn't? Seriously?

Until someone finds a money trail, that's all this is, and all this
has ever been.


Dumbass -

There are people on this group who are trying to assert that it is
more
than that. One of those idiots (Laff@me) tried to liken it to BALCO,
but
BALCO started off with a syringe and blood (DNA evidence). It
continued
because BALCO was a drug manufacturing enterprise with a facility in
Burlingame, California, employees, client lists full of professional
athletes from a whole range of North American professional sports
(even
cycling w/ Tammy Thomas), lab technicians, etc.

Lotsa hard evidence.

In the LANCE/Flandis situation, without the paper trail, there's not
even anything to show (outside of he-said/she-said) that a crime has
occurred, except Flandis' positive dope test at the TdF, but that test
1) happened outside the US and 2) points at Flandis, not LANCE.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.
Speak for yourself dickhead. The only similarity I've pointed out
between BALCO and Armstrong is the involvement of Novitsky.

As to proving cases in court, time will tell what is developed. It's
amazing the kinds of tracks even the most careful people leave. Try to
get it though your head into that pea sized brain of yours that the
interest the Feds have centers on fraudulent use of US government
monies
and fraud in the procurement of an insurance policy from SCA Promotions
worth $5million+.

I wonder if any of Lance's teammates took photos to share down the
road.
Maybe they saved txt messages, voicemails, emails. It's early on in the
investigations. I will tell you that the US Attorney in the Northern
District of California has the reputation for publicizing arrests of
high profile individuals. Check out his web site.

IIRC, Thom Weisel has dealt with this US Attorney's office before. It
could be something of a reunion.

Dumbass, two questions:

- Did you come as you typed that?

- Aren't you the guy that said the feds would be coming
after flandis for hacking the French lab's computer?

Fred Flintstein

Well Flintstone, I recall a discussion about the French authorities and
their issuance of an arrest warrant for Landis. There was some question
as to whether or not it was an international arrest warrant--I recall it
was not. I don't recall the French government seeking the enforcement of
their warrant here in the US, do you?

Dumbass,

My kid would do that when she was a toddler. If I asked her
a question she didn't want to answer, she'd answer a
different, easier question.

Fred Flintstein

PS The feds are coming after flandis for hacking the French
lab's computer.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ce37b869dc2703
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...1daaa8334b698a

Flintstone, you ask your kid if she comes all over the keyboard when
typing and you're surprised you don't get an answer??!!

Try reading what I posted that you pulled up from Google. I didn't say
the Fed were going to go after Landis or Baker on their own. I said they
might if USADA filed a complaint that Landis and Baker used false
evidence under oath in an arbitration proceeding. They still might,
although I suspect they'll all cut deals of one sort or another.

Such a putz you are. Go find Wilma and take a break, Fred.

B. Lafferty wrote:
On 5/26/2010 11:48 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On May 26, 11:42 am, "B. wrote:
On 5/26/2010 11:24 AM, Brad Anders wrote:

We'll have to see. I'm especially interested in how effective this
investigation will be, considering that most of the alleged doping
took place outside of the USA.


Time will tell.

Yet we'll still have to listen to you pontificate ad nauseum in the
meantime.

R
I don't speak excathedra, so you'll never hear me pontificate. I have a
question for you and all the other asswipes here. Do you think Tom
Weisel will take the fall for Lance or will he cut a deal and throw
Lance and Johan under the bus?

You are making the assumption that this is an either/or situation.

On May 26, 12:11*pm, DA74 wrote:


Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.



Dumbass -

Let us assume for the sake of argument that there was a team organized
doping program. If they kept receipts which would tie the team to
doping outside the rules, then they deserve to go down. Thing is, IMO,
it's very unlikely that they were that stupid.

I mean, you'd have to be really, really dumb to do that.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

On May 26, 1:59*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
As to proving cases in court, time will tell what is developed. *It's
amazing the kinds of tracks even the most careful people leave. *Try to
get it though your head into that pea sized brain of yours that the
interest the Feds have centers on fraudulent use of US government monies
and fraud in the procurement of an insurance policy from SCA Promotions
worth $5million+.

Is this just busy work for someone (at the Fed) needing something to do?

In the "real" world, *it would depend entirely upon how the SCA contract was
worded. There may not be an after-the-finding recourse; it may be very
specifically spelled out that there is a timeframe in which any evidence
must be brought forth before a finding can be made in favor of SCA. Even a
typical insurance policy allows for payment in the event of fraud after a
period of time (typically two years, in the case of my own life insurance
policy, meaning that I could lie about my medical condition and only during
the first two years can they cancel or modify the policy).

If the Feds have nothing better to do than to go after an $8 million/year
expenditure that ended many years ago, while people wrote up and made tons
of $$$ from fraudulent mortgages backed by the government every single day
for years (fraudulent because they were based on false information regarding
ability to pay)... and those people haven't been touched... something's
seriously wrong with this picture.

The government has a legitimate role in looking at potential tax fraud, but
this other stuff is just way too far out there, and with too-little possible
recovery of significant revenue, for me to be happy that they're spending
tax dollars on it.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

It's not about the money Mike - they're are bigger tax cheats than
Wesley Snipes and bigger frauds than Lance Armstrong.

It's about the headlines and free publicity has a power all its own -
whether getting taxpayers to pay, dopers to stop doping or warriors to
go to war.

Lance is a worthy target and they're are many people licking their
paws at the chance to tear him apart

On 5/26/2010 6:15 PM, Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
On May 26, 12:11 pm, wrote:


Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.



Dumbass -

Let us assume for the sake of argument that there was a team organized
doping program. If they kept receipts which would tie the team to
doping outside the rules, then they deserve to go down. Thing is, IMO,
it's very unlikely that they were that stupid.

I mean, you'd have to be really, really dumb to do that.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.
My God, but you are a simpleton. I hope nobody is ever dumb enough to
join you in a criminal conspiracy. Carry on, Fred.

On May 26, 3:11*pm, DA74 wrote:

dumbass,

Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.


dumbass,

you're right. when the team car needs an oil change bruyneel drives it
over to pepboys and is sure to mail weisel the receipt so that he can
tell his accounting guy to mail him a cheque.

On May 26, 3:15*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
wrote:
On May 26, 12:11*pm, DA74 wrote:



Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.

Dumbass -

Let us assume for the sake of argument that there was a team organized
doping program. If they kept receipts which would tie the team to
doping outside the rules, then they deserve to go down. Thing is, IMO,
it's very unlikely that they were that stupid.

I mean, you'd have to be really, really dumb to do that.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

Of course they don't have the actual receipts ****tard. What I was
apparently unhumorously trying to say is that if you have a business
and you have an expense, whether legitimate or otherwise you've got to
stick it somewhere on the ledger. If these guys were sponsoring a
doping program which it appears Floyd is accusing them of doing
(transfusions on the team bus), they had to capture that expense
somewhere.

This whole thing is going to come down to is a question of whether or
not the feds can get access to
Tailwind's books and then whether the auditors can find out where this
stuff got stuck (if in fact Tailwind was paying for it).
-DA74

On 5/26/2010 6:55 PM, DA74 wrote:
On May 26, 3:15 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
wrote:
On May 26, 12:11 pm, wrote:



Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.

Dumbass -

Let us assume for the sake of argument that there was a team organized
doping program. If they kept receipts which would tie the team to
doping outside the rules, then they deserve to go down. Thing is, IMO,
it's very unlikely that they were that stupid.

I mean, you'd have to be really, really dumb to do that.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

Of course they don't have the actual receipts ****tard. What I was
apparently unhumorously trying to say is that if you have a business
and you have an expense, whether legitimate or otherwise you've got to
stick it somewhere on the ledger. If these guys were sponsoring a
doping program which it appears Floyd is accusing them of doing
(transfusions on the team bus), they had to capture that expense
somewhere.

This whole thing is going to come down to is a question of whether or
not the feds can get access to
Tailwind's books and then whether the auditors can find out where this
stuff got stuck (if in fact Tailwind was paying for it).
-DA74
The Feds will get Tailwind's books. The question is whether or not the
books are cooked.

On May 26, 3:42*pm, "B. Lafferty" wrote:
On 5/26/2010 6:15 PM, Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:

On May 26, 12:11 pm, *wrote:

Weisel will never even be involved.

Uh bro, he doesn't have a choice at this point. He was the original
owner of Tailwind and they cashed the checks from the USPS. That's
what you call a paper trail. The feds will want to see the receipts
for the "misc medical expenses" account on the ledger for a few of
those years.

Dumbass -

Let us assume for the sake of argument that there was a team organized
doping program. If they kept receipts which would tie the team to
doping outside the rules, then they deserve to go down. Thing is, IMO,
it's very unlikely that they were that stupid.

I mean, you'd have to be really, really dumb to do that.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

My God, but you are a simpleton. *I hope nobody is ever dumb enough to
join you in a criminal conspiracy. *Carry on, Fred.

The great thing about a conspiracy charge is that you
can bring it even if you might not be able to win a case
on the underlying crime (of course, the underlying crime
doesn't generally even have to be committed, just
intended). It's actually probably harder to find someone
who hasn't technically engaged in such behavior at some
point in their life, but most of such law-breaking is minor
and never draws the attention of investigators with
subpoena power, which is why we're not all in jail for
lying to insurance agents about whether or not we use
our cars for daily commuting. (Actually, I don't, but I think
my agent once put down that I used my car for
"pleasure driving," which must be a lie given today's traffic.)

Anyway, I have a different question, Lafferty. Once upon
a time, you were interested in doping prosecutions as
a way to clean up the sport - I remember proclamations
that now the dopers were on the run and this year we would
see some real suffering in the mountains.

Have you given up on that ****? I mean, it's understandable
if you think the entire sport of pro cycling is irredeemably
dirty and you couldn't care about rescuing it anymore, let
it die. That's a defensible position. But then, why give
a damn about nailing LANCE? I don't think one can make a
case that nailing LANCE is going to help clean up the sport.
Is it anything other than personal animus?

Honestly I think you've accidentally won a Pyrrhic victory.
RBR is not like it was 10 years ago. Few people are willing
to fight to prove LANCE is clean. The reason the victory
is Pyrrhic is that it turns out at the same time as belief
in clean cyclists has dissipated, moral outrage has also
dissipated, so few RBR dumbasses are interested in crusading
to clean up cycling anymore. It seems like you aren't either.

Fredmaster Ben