|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#81
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Clovis Lark" wrote in message ... That was funny as ****. Tigers are the biggest land predators on earth - he took his chances and finally paid for it. I was mistaken about the tigers being the biggest. Grizzlies and polar bears are bigger. And Kodiaks? We shan't Mention sperm whales... I said "land predators". There are many in the ocean which are bigger. Total agreement. the victim will be the poor tiger, already in quarantine. They better not kill the tiger. That would be very wrong. If the tiger wanted to kill Facelift Roy, Facelift Roy would be dead. The MO for these animals is to fell the prey with an intended fatal laceration to the jugular. They then drag the prey to a "neutral" location. Oops, that's EXACTLY what happened. Were Roy Boy NOT on stage in a metropolitan region with state of the art hospitals within shouting distance, my uneducated hunch would be that not only would he be a dead man, he be a partially consumed man. It's generally accepted that tigers are not completely tameable. In the wild they will eat humans, by design. Not unless forced or "trained" by conditions. Read awl about it: http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/Tiger/diettiger.html Interesting. So he wanted to eat Facelift Roy? |
Ads |
#82
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Nick Burns" wrote in message m... "TritonRider" wrote in message ... From: "Kyle Legate" Maybe by the _next_ Athens Olympics, but not these ones. The technology is not there yet. What you quoted was an ill-informed piece of fluff. Kyle it may not be proven to be effective, but look how much **** people are pumping into themselves without any clinical proof that it helps. This stuff has the greatest probablilty for undetectable gains that anything has ever had. Doesn't matter whether anything has been proven yet, racers will attempt to use this technology based on the possibility that it might help. Elite athletes tend to become blind to everything but their ambitions. If they looked at things objectively the wouldn't do it, but in sports nothing is objective. Bill C It seems to me that there are 2 different assertions being made. If you and Hank want to talk about the crazy **** people will try in efforts to cheat, then that is one discussion. Actual performance benefits are a different matter entirely. Dumbass - If they can do the Schwarzenegger thing for mice, then it's possible to do it for humans too. |
#83
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message s.com... TritonRider wrote: Chris do you really expect racers to wait until there are good documented studies to use these techniques? They are going to shoot up whatever they think will give them an advantage, no matter if it's tested or not. The ugly results are not 50-100 years away. They are tomorrow's headlines. Henry is right on the money on this one. Incorrect. What are they going to do, break into Dr. Rosenthal's lab and steal the vector that contributed to the Schwatzenegger mice? Gene therapy will have to be tailored to each patient's situation and condition, and custom designed. There will be no stockpile for experimentation. VDB would have to convert his drug fridge into a molecular biology lab. Dumbass - Someone will do it. Remember the East German sports program? I could see China doing it. I could see underpaid Western lab techs doing it too. If it's possible for someone to abuse a new technique for monetary benefit, then we can rest assured that it will be done. As an aside, whomever would have guessed that TT would have gone after a no-longer-produced steroid? |
#84
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Nev Shea" wrote in message ink.net... "Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in t: I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies, persay, just that it will be possible to morph humans into beings that most of us may consider to be non-human. snip Fruit fly36% Mouse90% Roundworm21% Yeast23% Thale cress15% Zebrafish85% E coli7% Chimp98% Rat90% Everyone assumes such genetic engineering will be used to improve athletic performance, yet I suspect experiments are already underway that transplant the brain DNA of Fruit Flies, Roundworms, and Yeast into human subjects. The proof of this exists because it causes a person to post about his broken Bianchi frame or make other inane arguments in NGs. Dumbass - you are making funny posts in your old age. |
#85
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
Imagine the freaks we're gonna get when genetic vaccination techniques become widely available. Someone can go in and say, "I want the mitochondria of a deer" and they can change a few genes around and voila! the athlete's mitochondria will suddenly be 4 times more effective. The freakish part is that we don't have a full understanding of how all the genes interact with each other. So the athlete may get that mitochondria, but he may get some other things he didn't bargain for. Ever see the movie "The Fly"? Such a thing will be possible. Don't worry. I hear Bell is coming out with a helmet that will fit over deer antlers. Mark Janeba |
#86
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
Mark Janeba wrote: Don't worry. I hear Bell is coming out with a helmet that will fit over deer antlers. Deer antler velvet is a good "recovery product" *nudge* *wink* |
#87
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message s.com... The key, they say, is genetic manipulation. By the Athens Olympics in 2004, dozens if not hundreds of athletes are expected to have experimented with the rapidly emerging range of gene-altering drugs. Unfettered by fears of being caught they will, according to the experts, shatter the accepted limits of human performance. No. Maybe by the _next_ Athens Olympics, but not these ones. The technology is not there yet. What you quoted was an ill-informed piece of fluff. Dumbass - perhaps, but its being speculated about all over the 'net. If people are thinking about it, that means that somewhere, someone is going to try it, sooner rather than later. http://maxmag.maxsportsinternational...e28/28sci1.htm With relatively few old-timers showing an inclination to pump iron three times a week for the rest of their of lives, the potential market for an alternative muscle-building drug is clearly enormous. Science finally appears close to creating one. In separate experiments over the past couple of years at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia, and University College Medical School in London, as well as the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center in Sweden, researchers have tested muscle-building vaccines based on engineered genes. Injected into mice, these vaccines have boosted muscle mass in the animals legs by 15 to 27%. Amazingly, these increases were measurable in only a month or so and did not require any exercise at all! Many muscle researchers believe that the first human trials will occur within the next couple of years. This could also be a major breakthrough for the treatment of a host of degenerative muscle diseases, including the various forms of muscular dystrophy. On the down side, it takes little imagination to see the possibilities for abuse of the vaccines by healthy young athletes in power sports such as football, weight lifting, sprinting and short-distance swimming. Compared with anabolic steroids, a vaccine based on an engineered gene would offer some major advantages. It would need to be administered only one time, rather than periodically, and it would be essentially undetectable in the body. MUSCLE PHYSIOLOGY 101 A single muscle cell consists of a membrane, many scattered nuclei that contains genes and thousands of inner strands called myofibrils. Filling the inside of muscle fiber, the myofibrils can be as long as the fiber and are the part that enables the cells to contract forcefully in response to nerve impulses. The actual contraction is accomplished by the myofibril tiny component units which are called sarcomeres. Within each sarcomere are two proteins, called myosin and actin, whose interaction causes contraction of the muscle. Basically, during contraction a sarcomere is shortened like a collapsing telescope, as the actin filaments at each end of a central myosin filament slide toward to the myosin's center. Muscle cells, also known as fibers cannot split themselves to form completely new fibers. A muscle can become more massive only when its individual fibers become thicker. What causes this thickening is the creation of new myofibrils. The mechanical stresses that exercise exerts on tendons and other structures connected to the muscle trigger different biochemical pathways that ultimately cause the muscle cells to make more proteins. Enormous amounts of these proteins, chiefly myosin and actin, are needed as the cell produces additional myofibrils. As muscle cells cannot divide, the new nuclei are donated by so-called satellite cells, which are scattered among the many nuclei on the surface of a skeletal muscle fiber. Satellite cells proliferate in response to the stresses and wear and tear of exercise. As they multiply, some remain as satellites on the fiber, but others become incorporated into it. With these additional nuclei, the fiber is able to turn out more proteins and create more myofibrils. Rigorous exercise inflicts tiny "micro tears" in muscle fibers. The damaged area attracts the satellite cells, which incorporate themselves into the muscle tissue and begin producing proteins to fill the gap. Gradually, as more micro tears are repaired in this manner, the overall number of nuclei grows, as does the fiber itself (i.e. muscle enlarges). One component of the myosin molecule, the so-called heavy chain, determines the functional characteristics of the muscle fiber. In an adult, this heavy chain exists in three different forms, known as isoforms. These isoforms are designated Type I, Type IIa, and Type IIx, as are the fibers that contain them. Type I fibers are also known as slow fibers; Type IIa and IIx are referred to as fast fibers. The fibers are called slow and fast for good reason; the maximum contraction velocity of a single Type I fiber is approximately 1/10th of every Type IIx fiber. The velocity of Type IIa fibers are somewhere between those of Type I and IIx. Slow fibers depend more on relatively efficient aerobic exercise where as the fast fibers depend more on anaerobic exercise. Thus, slow fibers are important for endurance activities and sports such as long distance running, cycling, or swimming, where as fast fibers are key to power pursuits such as weight lifting and sprinting. The "average" healthy adult has relatively equal numbers of slow and fast fibers in say the quadriceps muscle of the thigh. But as a species, humans show a great variation in this regard. A person with a predominance of slow fibers would probably become an accomplished marathoner but would never get anywhere as a sprinter or power lifter; the opposite would be true of a person with the predominance of fast fibers. MUSCLE CONVERSION When healthy muscles are loaded heavily and repeatedly, as in weight training programs, the number of fast IIx fibers declines as they convert to fast IIa fibers. In those fibers, the nuclei stop expressing the IIx gene and begin expressing the IIa. If vigorous exercise continues for about a month or more, the IIx fibers will completely transform to IIa fibers. At the same time, the fibers increase their production of proteins, becoming thicker (hypertrophy). CONVERTING SLOW TO FAST? Is it possible to convert the slower Type I fibers to faster Type II fibers? In the early 1990's there was an indication that a rigorous exercise regimen could convert slow fibers to fast IIa fibers. Researchers at the University of Copenhagen Muscle Research Center suggested that a program of vigorous weight training supplemented with other forms of anaerobic exercise converts not only Type IIx fibers to IIa, but also Type I fibers to IIa. If a certain type of exertion can convert some Type I fibers to IIa, we might naturally wonder if some other kind can convert IIa to I. It may be possible, but so far no link in human training studies has unambiguously demonstrated such a shift. It is true, star endurance athletes such as long-distance runners and swimmers, cyclists and cross-country skiers generally have remarkably high proportions (up to 95%, as mentioned earlier) of slow Type I fibers in their major muscle groups, such as in the legs. Yet at present we do not know whether these athletes were born with such a high percentage Type I fibers and gravitated toward sports that take advantage of unusual inborn traits or whether they very gradually increased the proportion of Type I fibers in their muscles as they trained over a period of many months or years. Researchers have found that hypertrophy from resistance training enlarges Type II fibers twice as much as it does type I fibers. Thus, weight training can increase the cross-sectional area of the muscle covered by fast fibers without changing the relative ratio between the number of slow and faster fibers in the muscle. It is the relative cross-sectional area of the fast and slow fiber that determines the functional characteristics of the entire muscle. The more area covered by fast fibers, the fast and more powerful the overall muscle will be. So a sprinter at least has the option of altering the characteristics of his or her leg muscles by exercising them with weights to increase the relative cross section of fast fibers. THE ERA OF GENETIC MANIPULATION Although certain types of fiber conversion, such as IIa to I appear to be difficult to bring about through exercise, the time is rapidly approaching when researchers do have the capability to accomplish such conversions easily through genetic techniques. Such genetic manipulations, most likely in the form of vaccines that insert artificial genes into the nuclei of muscle cells, will almost certainly be the performance enhancing drugs of the future. The tiny snippets of genetic material and the proteins that gene therapy will leave behind in the athletes muscle cells may be difficult, if not will be impossible, to identify as foreign. Gene therapy is now being researched intensively in most developed countries for a host of very good reasons. Instead of treating the deficiencies by injecting drugs, doctors will be able to prescribe genetic treatments that will induce the bodies own protein-making machinery to produce the proteins needed to combat illness. Like ordinary genes, the artificial gene consists of DNA. It can be delivered to the body in several ways. Suppose the gene is encoded for one of the many signaling proteins or hormones (testosterone or growth hormone) that stimulate muscle growth. The approach would be to inject the DNA via vaccine into the muscle. The muscle fibers would then take up the DNA and add it to the normal pool of genes. This method is not very efficient yet, so researchers often use viruses to carry the gene payload into a cells nuclei. A virus is essentially a collection of genes packed in a protein capsule that is able to bind to a cell and inject the genes. Scientists replace the viruses own genes with the artificial gene (i.e. the muscle growth stimulator gene), which the virus will then efficiently deliver to the cells in the body. GET PUMPED THE EASY WAY It is easy to see how the narcissist would find the drug irresistible. A vaccine to build muscle mainly where it was injected, making it possible for even the lazy and uncoordinated to sculpt their bodies by doing nothing more strenuous than lifting a hypodermic needle. Big biceps, nice calves and big bulging pecs would all be just a few injections away. Of course, an instant physique of this kind would not come without a physiological price. To improve performance or look really buff, athletes and body builders would probably need to take considerably larger doses than what doctors will prescribe for therapy. Thus, they would probably suffer some of the already known or suspected side effects for abuse of IGF-1, such as an enlarged heart and possibly cardiac arrest. THE GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SUPER ATHLETE These techniques will be abused by athletes in the future. Sports officials will be hard-pressed to detect the abuse, because the artificial genes will produce proteins that in many cases are identical to the normal proteins. Furthermore, only one injection will be needed, minimizing the risk of disclosure. It is true that officials would be able to detect the DNA of the artificial gene itself, but to do so they would have to know the sequence of the artificial gene, and the esters would have to obtain a sample of the tissue containing the DNA. Today, however, biopsies are not permitted as part of a routine anti-doping test. For all intents and purposes, gene doping will be undetectable. snipend |
#88
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
TritonRider wrote:
From: "Kyle Legate" Kyle, what do microbiologists make for a salary? ****, compared to what they are worth. Selling the promise of benefits, even if you don't deliver will make them more money in one year than they would in ten in the lab. Cool. I'll just package some random DNA with some sterile water and lipids and move into a bigger apartment. |
#89
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
Dumbass - If they can do the Schwarzenegger thing for mice, then it's possible to do it for humans too. Dumbass - How they made the Schwartzenegger mice was completely different than what they have to do to change the human genetic code. Completely different. The vaccines may have increased mouse muscle tissue, but can they do the same for humans? How is this gene regulated; can it be regulated? Can you _ever_ turn it off? If it's injected into the blood, how are you going to assure that only the target muscles get it (and not also your jaw muscles, muscles around the eyes, etc...more grotesque than hGH)? Does this vaccine also affect smooth muscle? It would sure suck to get hypertrophied blood vessel muscles and diaphragm. Cardiac muscle--is it affected? If it's injected into the muscle tissue how do you assure even coverage of the muscle tissue? How do you assure a comparable strength increase for opposing muscle groups? I could ask more questions, but I think you should get the point that there is a lot more work to do before such an approach will even become feasible. |
#90
|
|||
|
|||
VDB admits doping...?
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message s.com... Kurgan Gringioni wrote: Dumbass - If they can do the Schwarzenegger thing for mice, then it's possible to do it for humans too. Dumbass - How they made the Schwartzenegger mice was completely different than what they have to do to change the human genetic code. Completely different. The vaccines may have increased mouse muscle tissue, but can they do the same for humans? How is this gene regulated; can it be regulated? Can you _ever_ turn it off? If it's injected into the blood, how are you going to assure that only the target muscles get it (and not also your jaw muscles, muscles around the eyes, etc...more grotesque than hGH)? Does this vaccine also affect smooth muscle? It would sure suck to get hypertrophied blood vessel muscles and diaphragm. Cardiac muscle--is it affected? If it's injected into the muscle tissue how do you assure even coverage of the muscle tissue? How do you assure a comparable strength increase for opposing muscle groups? I could ask more questions, but I think you should get the point that there is a lot more work to do before such an approach will even become feasible. Dumbass - Just as with hgh, the type of athletes who will try the genetic vaccine will accept the risks of the potential side-effects you mention. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Armstrong Angry About Break-In - Planting Doping Agents !! | Churchill | General | 8 | July 18th 04 09:17 AM |
Doping or not? Read this: | never_doped | Racing | 0 | August 4th 03 01:46 AM |
Ullrich admits Stage 5 stomach trouble | one of the six billion | Racing | 6 | July 17th 03 09:16 PM |