Remembering how to tie my shoes, going back for a do-rag

On 7/3/2020 6:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 1:47:27 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2020 3:08 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard
Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones. Sheldon
agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are the easiest
pedals of all to slide into. The opening is like a big
funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my friends can
clip into their pedals.

Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it
still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second
pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind the
toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two.

The Lyotards are amazingly easy to get into. I just checked to
see how it happens, so here are details:

The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of the
toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly horizontal. The
toe clip makes it tilt back a bit.

When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now decades
old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the underside of
the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its equilibrium position to
horizontal and inverted. When I take my foot off the underside,
the pedal swings forward and presents the long rear tab of the
Lyotard to my toe. That swing seems to be the key. I slide in
easily.

So are you saying the pedal does a roughly 180 degree rotation
after you lower your foot from its underside? That doesn't sound
right, so I'm probably missing something.

I think my technique may be somewhat similar. I place my foot on
top of the pedal (toe clip side downward, where it naturally
hangs), and when I take my foot off the pedal it swings forward
just enough for me to get the toe of my shoe over the other face
of the pedal. If I catch it right (maybe 60-70% of the time?), I
can then get it pulled around far enough the same direction to let
me slide the toe of my shoe in.

It sounds to me like we do exactly the same thing. Except these pedals
are so easy to get into, I slide in well over 90% of the time. Probably
about 99%, actually.

Maybe that curved tab on the model you use helps a lot. I've got
Campagnolo Superleggeri pedals, so they are pretty much flat with
both edges the same.

It really does help a lot. FWIW, the pedals on my touring bike are
different - they're the original quill style pedal that came with the
bike. I added "Toe Flips" to the back edges of those pedals - a thin
steel accessory that works similarly to the scoop or tab on the
Lyotards. Here's a link, although you can't see the shape very well:

https://aroundthecycle.com/products/...=8757518827580

I see that MKS markets something with similar intent, but very tiny:
https://www.jensonusa.com/MKS-Spin-Pedal-Flips I'd be surprised if
those helped as much.

And the 'decades old" practice makes me wonder if it was really
that simple when you began with it.

Yes, it might have taken a while. Can't recall.

That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I
pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot on
that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes it dead
easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost never scrape.

How can you take one or two strokes without scraping? This
doesn't make sense to me, but maybe you angle the pedal somehow.

No, I don't even think about it. There is some ground clearance between
the toe clip and the inverted pedal. Remember, it's not hanging loose;
my foot is on it as it sits inverted. It's not that it never scrapes;
but it is seldom.

I just measured about 1.5" ground clearance. Obviously, that would vary
with crank length, bottom bracket height and toe clip contours.

I used to blow through Lyotard platform pedals because they were relatively cheap and had poor/non-existent seals. Cones would pit and bearings would fail, particularly since I wasn't that diligent repacking them every time I rode in the rain. Anyway, this points out another benefit of the M520s or better -- they have great seals. I repacked a set of pedals that were a decade old and that had been ridden in endless rain, and the grease was still intact and in good shape.

Speaking of rain, another benefit of clipless is that your booties don't get beat-up by toe clips and don't hang-up on the toe clips when you're getting in to the pedal. My booties are not cheap. Back in the toe-clip days, I sewed my own booties. They were junk, but riding in California, they were rarely used and good enough.

-- Jay Beattie.




I didn't have bearing problems but I did wear through the
top rivets in 10 or so years of daily use after which they
just fall apart. (I gave up at the 3d pair) Nice pedal
design overall, and Frank notes their magic 'always ready'
balanced rest position, but with some very weak aspects.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/3/2020 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I used to blow through Lyotard platform pedals because they were relatively cheap and had poor/non-existent seals. Cones would pit and bearings would fail, particularly since I wasn't that diligent repacking them every time I rode in the rain.

I agree, the bearing seals are non-existent. On the one bike most often
ridden in the rain, I cobbled together some rubber seals on my own. They
improved the sealing from nothing to a bit better than nothing. And yes,
some maintenance is required. The seals on the MKS copies are much, much
better.

I once knew a track racer, a big guy, who claimed to have bent the
spindles on those Lyotards during sprints. I was never that strong.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber
technology. (But thanks for that technical content.)

No problem. Looks like you've solved your shoe problem. You may not
be learning much about glue and rubber:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html
but I'm learning some things about pedals, cleats, toe clips, straps,
booties, tandems, and other things of which I know very little.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 16:47:23 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2020 3:08 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/3/2020 9:03 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:01:58 -0400,
Frank Krygowski wrote:


Our tandem (like most bikes here) is fitted with Lyotard
Mod 23 pedals or their MKS Urban Platform clones.
Sheldon agreed with me that these, with toe clips, are
the easiest pedals of all to slide into. The opening is
like a big funnel. I can get my foot in faster than my
friends can clip into their pedals.

Well, my hat is off to you. I'm pretty practiced, and it
still takes me an extra go-round or two to get the second
pedal flipped so the toe clip is up. Maybe you don't mind
the toe clip dragging on the ground for a stroke or two.

The pedal naturally hangs upside down, and the weight of
the toe clip means the pedal surface is not exactly
horizontal. The toe clip makes it tilt back a bit.

When astride the bike and ready to go, my habit (now
decades old) is to touch my left foot horizontally to the
underside of the pedal, so the pedal pivots from its
equilibrium position to horizontal and inverted. When I
take my foot off the underside, the pedal swings forward
and presents the long rear tab of the Lyotard to my toe.
That swing seems to be the key. I slide in easily.

So are you saying the pedal does a roughly 180 degree rotation
after you lower your foot from its underside? That doesn't
sound right, so I'm probably missing something.

I think my technique may be somewhat similar. I place my foot
on top of the pedal (toe clip side downward, where it
naturally hangs), and when I take my foot off the pedal it
swings forward just enough for me to get the toe of my shoe
over the other face of the pedal. If I catch it right (maybe
60-70% of the time?), I can then get it pulled around far
enough the same direction to let me slide the toe of my shoe
in.

It sounds to me like we do exactly the same thing. Except these
pedals are so easy to get into, I slide in well over 90% of the
time. Probably about 99%, actually.

Okay, thanks for the added detail.


And the 'decades old" practice makes me wonder if it was
really that simple when you began with it.

Yes, it might have taken a while. Can't recall.

That's how I get my left foot in while stationary. When I
pedal, I normally do one or two strokes with my right foot
on that pedal's underside, but same swinging action makes
it dead easy to get my right foot in. Toe clips almost
never scrape.

How can you take one or two strokes without scraping? This
doesn't make sense to me, but maybe you angle the pedal
somehow.

No, I don't even think about it. There is some ground clearance
between the toe clip and the inverted pedal. Remember, it's not
hanging loose; my foot is on it as it sits inverted. It's not
that it never scrapes; but it is seldom.

I just measured about 1.5" ground clearance. Obviously, that
would vary with crank length, bottom bracket height and toe
clip contours.

Ah, I'm guessing my bike has a lower bottom bracket, possibly
longer crank arms. Though as I recall, the degree of scraping
does depend a bit on the angle of my foot (at the ankle).

My fixed gear bike currently has Speedplay pedals on it--took the
old Campy pedals off when we moved here, because it's only 1+ mile
to work and not worth commuting by bike.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 7/3/2020 10:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber
technology. (But thanks for that technical content.)

No problem. Looks like you've solved your shoe problem. You may not
be learning much about glue and rubber:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

Hmm. If I'd seen that a few weeks ago, I might have continued using the
old cycling shoes!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 12:54:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/3/2020 10:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber
technology. (But thanks for that technical content.)

No problem. Looks like you've solved your shoe problem. You may not
be learning much about glue and rubber:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

Hmm. If I'd seen that a few weeks ago, I might have continued using the
old cycling shoes!

I thought that might get your attention. Good to know that I'm not
the only person who repairs their own shoes:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/index.html#shoes.jpg

Using hot melt glue doesn't work with every type of rubber or hot melt
glue. I got lucky and came close on my first attempt. The shoes in
the photo worked well as long as I was walking on a fairly flat
surface. However, when I started doing exercise walks through the
local state park, on some rather rough trails, the hot melt glue
eventually separated from the rubber sole, usually in large chunks. In
other words, adhesion wasn't good enough when the sole was flexed.

I did some experiments with surface preparation, which improved the
situation. Acetone seems to be the best cleaner. Cutting shallow
crosshatched grooves into the rubber sole helped. Note that hot melt
glue is usually rubber based, so there are probably few issues with
different rates of thermal expansion or material incompatibility.

The best I've done so far is to simulate rubberized concrete. I'm
using smooth sand, shredded soft rubber (bicycle inner tubes), small
chunks of powdered automobile tires, and black hot melt glue sticks.
It mostly works, but I don't believe I have the recipe optimized.

I had the bright idea of using translucent hot melt glue sticks, so I
could see when the glue line started to separate. Instead, I found
that the clear glue didn't stick anywhere as well as the black glue
sticks. At this time, I don't understand why.

A good question to ask is why not use made for the purpose Shoe Goo?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_Goo
The problem is that it's too soft and wears out far too quickly. It
works great as a gap filler and for re-attaching soles, but fails
badly for replacing large worn areas, such as the heels.

A glue that worked quite well for most everything was Awesome Goo:
https://www.amazon.com/Awesome-Goo-CECOMINOD023727/dp/B003EB51CY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFKCWgiEFGU
I used some to fix a microphone cable. Ugly, but functional:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/awesome-goo/
Unfortunately, the stuff was expensive. The company disappeared about
8 years ago and the supply dried up.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:39:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 12:54:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/3/2020 10:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber
technology. (But thanks for that technical content.)

No problem. Looks like you've solved your shoe problem. You may not
be learning much about glue and rubber:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

Hmm. If I'd seen that a few weeks ago, I might have continued using the
old cycling shoes!

I thought that might get your attention. Good to know that I'm not
the only person who repairs their own shoes:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/index.html#shoes.jpg

Using hot melt glue doesn't work with every type of rubber or hot melt
glue. I got lucky and came close on my first attempt. The shoes in
the photo worked well as long as I was walking on a fairly flat
surface. However, when I started doing exercise walks through the
local state park, on some rather rough trails, the hot melt glue
eventually separated from the rubber sole, usually in large chunks. In
other words, adhesion wasn't good enough when the sole was flexed.

I did some experiments with surface preparation, which improved the
situation. Acetone seems to be the best cleaner. Cutting shallow
crosshatched grooves into the rubber sole helped. Note that hot melt
glue is usually rubber based, so there are probably few issues with
different rates of thermal expansion or material incompatibility.

The best I've done so far is to simulate rubberized concrete. I'm
using smooth sand, shredded soft rubber (bicycle inner tubes), small
chunks of powdered automobile tires, and black hot melt glue sticks.
It mostly works, but I don't believe I have the recipe optimized.

I had the bright idea of using translucent hot melt glue sticks, so I
could see when the glue line started to separate. Instead, I found
that the clear glue didn't stick anywhere as well as the black glue
sticks. At this time, I don't understand why.

A good question to ask is why not use made for the purpose Shoe Goo?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_Goo
The problem is that it's too soft and wears out far too quickly. It
works great as a gap filler and for re-attaching soles, but fails
badly for replacing large worn areas, such as the heels.

A glue that worked quite well for most everything was Awesome Goo:
https://www.amazon.com/Awesome-Goo-CECOMINOD023727/dp/B003EB51CY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFKCWgiEFGU
I used some to fix a microphone cable. Ugly, but functional:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/awesome-goo/
Unfortunately, the stuff was expensive. The company disappeared about
8 years ago and the supply dried up.


The sole came off one of my wife's dress shoes and she brought it to
her "Lord and Master" to be repaired.

Not knowing a damned thing about shoe repair I eased on by one of
those "Shoe Repair" places at the local super market and looked at
what sort of "stuff" that guy was using to put shoes together with.

Regular old contact cement :-) So I glued her shoe using Construction
Cement, which is a sort of contact cement and a year or so later it is
still holding. Although to be honest she only wears shoes to "affairs"
(and before someone comments, sandals are the normal foot wear he-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 07:38:49 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The sole came off one of my wife's dress shoes and she brought it to
her "Lord and Master" to be repaired.

Not knowing a damned thing about shoe repair I eased on by one of
those "Shoe Repair" places at the local super market and looked at
what sort of "stuff" that guy was using to put shoes together with.

Regular old contact cement :-)

Yep. That's what I use for repairing shoe uppers. However, it
doesn't work for worn shoe sole or heel repair. That's why I was
experimenting with hot melt glue.

Incidentally, I've been cloned. This is exactly the method I used to
repair the heels of my boots except I used much cheaper hot melt glue:

"How To Fix Shoes & Worn Heels With Stormsure Adhesive | Repair Any
Shoes Permanently!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpmnri5P13k

Mine:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

So I glued her shoe using Construction
Cement, which is a sort of contact cement and a year or so later it is
still holding.

Good substitute but comes in several flavors.
https://polymerdatabase.com/Adhesives/Structural%20Adhesives.html
Weldwood DAP contact cement is neoprene rubber dissolved in an
assortment of nasty solvents:
https://www.dap.com/media/4739/1021104english.pdf (Section 3)
https://www.dap.com/products-projects/product-categories/adhesives/contact-cement/
Structural adhesives and contact cement may act the same, but they're
not the same composition.

Incidentally, please don't call it "construction cement". Google and
I confuse cement with concrete and mortar.

Although to be honest she only wears shoes to "affairs"
(and before someone comments, sandals are the normal foot wear he-)

I tried using DAP contact cement to repair the "bonding" between the
uppers and the sole on one of my previous construction boots. It fell
apart, along with most of the insole. I had been wearing them while
using paint stripper (methylene chloride). The fumes attacked the
contact cement which promptly fell apart. Be sure to tell your wife
not to wear her dress shoes while using paint stripper.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 7:39:23 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 12:54:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 7/3/2020 10:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
For Jeff: The downside is I won't learn as much about glue and rubber
technology. (But thanks for that technical content.)

No problem. Looks like you've solved your shoe problem. You may not
be learning much about glue and rubber:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

Hmm. If I'd seen that a few weeks ago, I might have continued using the
old cycling shoes!

I thought that might get your attention. Good to know that I'm not
the only person who repairs their own shoes:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/index.html#shoes.jpg

The reason for replacing my old shoes was a chunk of black sole rubber
disappeared. It didn't affect their cycling utility, but it looked
weird and seemed a harbinger of further trouble.

But your photo interested me enough to go shopping. While sitting at
my computer, of course (but wearing pants). I'm having Jeff B send me
some black hot melt glue, which until your photo, I didn't know existed.

Besides the shoe repair, I've been wanting to cast a lens cover for
a certain set of binoculars, and another for a gun scope. I think
that glue may do the trick.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 18:43:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 07:38:49 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The sole came off one of my wife's dress shoes and she brought it to
her "Lord and Master" to be repaired.

Not knowing a damned thing about shoe repair I eased on by one of
those "Shoe Repair" places at the local super market and looked at
what sort of "stuff" that guy was using to put shoes together with.

Regular old contact cement :-)

Yep. That's what I use for repairing shoe uppers. However, it
doesn't work for worn shoe sole or heel repair. That's why I was
experimenting with hot melt glue.

In my wife's case it was the entire sole and heel which was one unit.
The upper and a sort of inner sole was originally glued to the sole
and I simply re-glued it.

It has been a lot of years since I wore boots but as I remember it, an
always variable experience, the work boots I wore - Red Wings - had a
solid sole/heel construction. Similar to https://tinyurl.com/y7tbztld

I remember when the price went up to Singapore $100, about US$90, I
think, and I quit wearing them and went to an Indonesian made work
boot which not only cost much less but wore just as well as the Red
Wings :-)



Incidentally, I've been cloned. This is exactly the method I used to
repair the heels of my boots except I used much cheaper hot melt glue:

"How To Fix Shoes & Worn Heels With Stormsure Adhesive | Repair Any
Shoes Permanently!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpmnri5P13k

Mine:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html

So I glued her shoe using Construction
Cement, which is a sort of contact cement and a year or so later it is
still holding.

Good substitute but comes in several flavors.
https://polymerdatabase.com/Adhesives/Structural%20Adhesives.html
Weldwood DAP contact cement is neoprene rubber dissolved in an
assortment of nasty solvents:
https://www.dap.com/media/4739/1021104english.pdf (Section 3)
https://www.dap.com/products-projects/product-categories/adhesives/contact-cement/
Structural adhesives and contact cement may act the same, but they're
not the same composition.

Incidentally, please don't call it "construction cement". Google and
I confuse cement with concrete and mortar.

Although to be honest she only wears shoes to "affairs"
(and before someone comments, sandals are the normal foot wear he-)

I tried using DAP contact cement to repair the "bonding" between the
uppers and the sole on one of my previous construction boots. It fell
apart, along with most of the insole. I had been wearing them while
using paint stripper (methylene chloride). The fumes attacked the
contact cement which promptly fell apart. Be sure to tell your wife
not to wear her dress shoes while using paint stripper.
--
Cheers,

John B.