Low spoke count wheels

Moving on from the spontaneous spoke failure post where hardly anyone seems to be addressing the question addressed by the OP I thought it might be worth having a dedicated thread on low spoke count wheels.

I am generally, depending on the time of year, between 73 and 80kg (160-176lbs) and from Spring through to late Autumn I ride low spoke count wheels. Over the winter months I ride wheels with 32 spokes front and back with Open Pro rims. I have three sets of Shimano wheels - Dura Ace C24s, RS80 C24s and Dura Ace C50s. All have 16 front 20 back. Weights quoted by Shimano are approximately 1380g, 1530g and 1660g respectively. The 32 spoke wheels are considerably heavier. The Shimanos vary in age and distance but the oldest the RS80s have covered at least 15,000 miles and I have never had to retrue them and the braking surfaces still have lots of life left in them. During their life they have spent nearly three months riding the Alps and the Dolomites. The other two sets have covered lower distances but again have needed no attention.

On the other hand the 32 spoke wheels have had a couple of spoke failures over the past three years both on the rear non-drive side at the elbow over about 7000 miles.

Given the likely cause of failure is fatigue what difference does the spoke material and spoke/hub design make. The Shimano wheels all have straight pull bladed spokes which look identical to and could well be Sapim C-Xrays (http://www.sapim.be/spokes/aero/cx-ray). Given they at higher tension and virtually all the weight bearing related forces are along the axis of the spoke and thus not subjecting it to bending as at an elbow as on a standard spoke does this contribute significantly to their expected life span.

Graham.

Another cost effective solution to generic spokes and excessive disposable income.

http://r2-bike.com/bilder/produkte/g...m-cx-ray_3.jpg


https://www.google.com/#q=shimano+st...r+hub&tbm=shop

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:19:51 AM UTC-4, datakoll wrote:
Another cost effective solution to generic spokes and excessive disposable income.



http://r2-bike.com/bilder/produkte/g...m-cx-ray_3.jpg





https://www.google.com/#q=shimano+st...r+hub&tbm=shop



http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

L L L L L L L

eyah I DOAHN remember straight pull last time I bought a hub at ???? $35

so when urine the outback what repairs when the threads pull out ?

the cone vs cartridge bearing question. or fewer spokes with large carcass and relatively unrepairable rims

http://www.universalcycles.com/searc...aight+pull+hub

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:19:51 AM UTC-7, datakoll wrote:
Another cost effective solution to generic spokes and excessive disposable income.



http://r2-bike.com/bilder/produkte/g...m-cx-ray_3.jpg





https://www.google.com/#q=shimano+st...r+hub&tbm=shop



http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

Oh gawd, from Peter White "If you're not racing, what the heck are you doing with a racing bike? And if you weigh over 200 pounds and have a racing bike and you keep trashing wheels, my best advice is to get rid of the damned thing and get a bike that's better suited to you, like this. Then talk to me about wheels." The "like this" links to this: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/rambouillet.asp

So, if my wheels are too light, I'm supposed to go out and buy a Rivendell with a triple crank and a 70s component group complete with quill stem? Why not a penny farthing or an eBike? Why don't I just get a sturdy set of wheels and skip the retro-bike. I may be over 200lbs, but my racing weight was within ten pounds of where I am now -- and I still ride with active racers.. The likelihood that I'm going to go on their training rides on a boat anchor with bar-end shifters is zero.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/30/2013 10:35 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:19:51 AM UTC-7, datakoll wrote:
Another cost effective solution to generic spokes and excessive disposable income.



http://r2-bike.com/bilder/produkte/g...m-cx-ray_3.jpg





https://www.google.com/#q=shimano+st...r+hub&tbm=shop



http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

Oh gawd, from Peter White "If you're not racing, what the heck are you doing with a racing bike? And if you weigh over 200 pounds and have a racing bike and you keep trashing wheels, my best advice is to get rid of the damned thing and get a bike that's better suited to you, like this. Then talk to me about wheels." The "like this" links to this: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/rambouillet.asp


What the hell is a racing bike anyway? Does he mean a road bike? Then
screw him. Let him sell to the guys not riding road bikes.

Anyway, I know a guy that used to weigh nearly 300. He bought an
expensive Rabobank knockoff and people laughed at him. He signed up for
a charity ride from Toronto to Montreal that they do in 3 days. About
550km with the 2nd day being a 220km ride. He checked into a training
group during the snow and spent his off time riding indoor TTs. He put
6000km on the Giant by the time he did the ride he was training for. At
that point he weighed 220. He's 63 and will probably live a lot longer
because of this. Too many people have too few opinions about what we
should and shouldn't do with our bikes.

So, if my wheels are too light, I'm supposed to go out and buy a Rivendell with a triple crank and a 70s component group complete with quill stem? Why not a penny farthing or an eBike? Why don't I just get a sturdy set of wheels and skip the retro-bike. I may be over 200lbs, but my racing weight was within ten pounds of where I am now -- and I still ride with active racers. The likelihood that I'm going to go on their training rides on a boat anchor with bar-end shifters is zero.


No, you're supposed to ignore the idiots that don't know what they're
talking about but keep talking anyway. Ignore them and go wear out
those tires on those light wheels.

On 10/30/2013 7:35 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

So, if my wheels are too light, I'm supposed to go out and buy a Rivendell with a triple crank and a 70s component group complete with quill stem?

Yes.

On 10/30/2013 7:35 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

snip

So, if my wheels are too light, I'm supposed to go out and buy a Rivendell with a triple crank and a 70s component group complete with quill stem? Why not a penny farthing or an eBike? Why don't I just get a sturdy set of wheels and skip the retro-bike. I may be over 200lbs, but my racing weight was within ten pounds of where I am now -- and I still ride with active racers. The likelihood that I'm going to go on their training rides on a boat anchor with bar-end shifters is zero.

No, but what Peter White says here is true: "Racers in particular often
want the lightest possible wheels and aren't concerned with long term
durability."

Plus of course the fact that racers typically weigh not more than 130
pounds but those riders buying CF frames and low spoke count wheels
weight a lot more.

Even though low spoke count, super-light wheels are good for business,
White discourages customers from ordering such wheels and does not
guarantee them.

People want to be polite and not call someone foolish for purchasing a
product that lacks long term durability but the fact is that not
everyone has the same objectives when they choose one product over
another. However they should at least be willing to admit to the fact
they chose form over function, cool over durable, or light versus
strong, rather than make up stories about it.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:59:14 AM UTC-4, Graham wrote:
... Over the winter months I ride wheels with 32 spokes front and back with Open Pro rims. I have three sets of Shimano wheels - Dura Ace C24s, RS80 C24s and Dura Ace C50s. All have 16 front 20 back. Weights quoted by Shimano are approximately 1380g, 1530g and 1660g respectively. The 32 spoke wheels are considerably heavier.

I'm curious how much heavier.


On the other hand the 32 spoke wheels have had a couple of spoke failures over the past three years both on the rear non-drive side at the elbow over about 7000 miles.

Given the likely cause of failure is fatigue what difference does the spoke material and spoke/hub design make. The Shimano wheels all have straight pull bladed spokes which look identical to and could well be Sapim C-Xrays (http://www.sapim.be/spokes/aero/cx-ray). Given they at higher tension and virtually all the weight bearing related forces are along the axis of the spoke and thus not subjecting it to bending as at an elbow as on a standard spoke does this contribute significantly to their expected life span.

This is when I really miss Jobst.

I wonder if the elbow bend was somehow a bad match for the flange thickness.. However, if both flanges are exactly the same thickness & shape, and if all spokes were exactly identical, seems the breaks should have occurred on the drive side.

Was there ever a chance that those spokes got accidental abuse? It was my left side rear spoke (or spokes, I forget) that broke after my friend fell riding my bike, then stepped on the rear spokes as he was getting up. The spokes broke long after that incident.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:35:42 AM UTC-4, Jay Beattie wrote:


Oh gawd, from Peter White "If you're not racing, what the heck are you doing with a racing bike?"

Well, it's a mirror image of the remark I got, "Why do you have all that _stuff_ on your bike?" (Translation: Why aren't you riding a Cervelo like mine on a 50 mile ride to bring back imported beer?)

We each have our preferences. Some will spend hundreds of dollars to reduce their bike+rider weight by half a percent and hope that nothing breaks. Others will hang canvas saddlebags on their bikes and hope that they can still climb the steep hills.

Jay, there's no danger that quasi-racing bikes are going to go away. For every Peter White or Grant Peterson article, there are hundreds of Buycycling articles on "Why you NEED this wheelset!!!" You can relax.

- Frank Krygowski

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:59:14 AM UTC-4, Graham wrote:
... Over the winter months I ride wheels with 32 spokes front and back with Open Pro rims. I have three sets of Shimano wheels - Dura Ace C24s, RS80 C24s and Dura Ace C50s. All have 16 front 20 back. Weights quoted by Shimano are approximately 1380g, 1530g and 1660g respectively. The 32 spoke wheels are considerably heavier.

I'm curious how much heavier.

I just weighed them and they weigh just over 1900g so compared to the Dura Ace C24s that's just over 500g or around 35%

[snip]

I wonder if the elbow bend was somehow a bad match for the flange thickness.

Hard to tell. It looks OK the spokes appear to be well seated.

Was there ever a chance that those spokes got accidental abuse?

Who knows particularly when you leave your bike outside the cafe on group rides anything could happen when bikes are stacked on top of each other. But if that could be an explanation then it should be more likely with the low spoke wheels as I ride them more often throughout the year.

Graham.