Better Braking?

On 2/1/2020 10:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:47:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
snip

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I usually buy mid-fi equipment, Ultegra and lower, including BR-RS785 discs that you got. Technically, that was a non-series disc brake that was bundled with 105 and Ultegra (IIRC, before the current Ultegra hydro group). It's my daily driver and a great brake for my purposes.

Like it or not, discs are taking over, at least in the PNW. I am amazed at the number of disc bikes on the road and in the racks at work. I wouldn't bother with them in Florida, but they are great in a wet climate for any all in one, year-round bike.

They're taking over here too, based on what I see for sale in the few
shops we have. The last shop I was in had discs outnumbering rim brakes.
But this is just proof that people buy what they're told to buy. We have
far less rain than the PNW; and more important, we have a far, far
smaller percentage of riders who will ride in the rain. (Most of our
club's rides get canceled if it's likely to rain.)

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

And I know if you ask them "Have you had trouble with your rim brakes?"
they'll say "Well, no..."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 10:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:47:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
snip

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I usually buy mid-fi equipment, Ultegra and lower, including BR-RS785 discs that you got. Technically, that was a non-series disc brake that was bundled with 105 and Ultegra (IIRC, before the current Ultegra hydro group).. It's my daily driver and a great brake for my purposes.

Like it or not, discs are taking over, at least in the PNW. I am amazed at the number of disc bikes on the road and in the racks at work. I wouldn't bother with them in Florida, but they are great in a wet climate for any all in one, year-round bike.

They're taking over here too, based on what I see for sale in the few
shops we have. The last shop I was in had discs outnumbering rim brakes.
But this is just proof that people buy what they're told to buy. We have
far less rain than the PNW; and more important, we have a far, far
smaller percentage of riders who will ride in the rain. (Most of our
club's rides get canceled if it's likely to rain.)

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them? The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders. The racers like them because of stopping power and because they eliminate the usual braking problems with carbon rims. I would not use carbon wheels with rim brakes unless the wheel has a aluminum brake track like the Dura-Ace wheels.

My rim brakes have eaten up my Dura-Ace C35 brake track, and I'm looking at an expensive replacement. I wish I had gone with the discs on my new Emonda. I'm going to see if my son can get me a super-duper S-Works disc Tarmac from the scratch and dent bin at work, although I really, really like the Emonda and don't need any more bikes. I suppose I should just buy another C35 rim if they still make them.

As an aside, my son works with a guy who is whole hog into the scratch and dent bin and has 34 -- count 'em -- 34 Specialized bikes. He has multiple bikes of the same model, varying only by component groups and wheels. Incroyable. He should have his own bike hoarder show. I find it hard to justify the bikes I own and that goes double for skis, some of which are mighty close to others. And now that I think of it, I have way too many over-lapping bike tools.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/1/2020 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup. http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2 The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era, Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz, Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend $4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight. They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing the toe in will last?

Lou


In theory the slight angle gives a leading-edge effect (like
auto drum brake shoes) to reduce harmonic vibration. The
arm flexes (to some greater or lesser extent depending on
brake) such that once your pad is fully engaged to the rim,
the entire pad should contact evenly.

In practice, some riders try to eliminate brake noise from
other sources by excessively toeing the pads. Besides not
solving the original problem, the result is soft brake feel
and uneven pad wear.

If your brake stops well and quietly with no toe, don't
overthink this, go ride.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"

It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.

The racers like them because of stopping power and because they eliminate the usual braking problems with carbon rims.

Yeah, I could see that if I used carbon rims. But again, neither I nor
anyone I remember ever told me "These metal rims are really slowing me
down." Of course, the racers I ride with all have "ex-" before their title.

I would not use carbon wheels with rim brakes unless the wheel has a aluminum brake track like the Dura-Ace wheels.

That sounds pretty reasonable.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.

On 2/1/2020 4:33 PM, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

It lasts precisely 687.2 km. Then you adjust them again.

It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also recommended for many caliper brakes. Still is, from what I
see online. Even direct mount.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also standard procedure to toe-in brake shoes at all the bicycle
shops I ever worked at. Those brakes included side-pull ones as well as cantilever ones.

IIRC, it was also a standard procedure in just about every bicycling book
printed in the 1980s.

Perhaps as brake calipers got better and more rigid toe-in isn't needed as much?

Cheers


Maybe. I’d go with Andrew’s recommendation and if the brakes work well and
don’t squeal, forget about it and go ride.

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 11:08:31 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst.. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also standard procedure to toe-in brake shoes at all the bicycle
shops I ever worked at. Those brakes included side-pull ones as well as cantilever ones.

IIRC, it was also a standard procedure in just about every bicycling book
printed in the 1980s.

Perhaps as brake calipers got better and more rigid toe-in isn't needed as much?

Cheers


Maybe. I’d go with Andrew’s recommendation and if the brakes work well and
don’t squeal, forget about it and go ride.

Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by choosing another brake pad compound.

Lou

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 10:49:49 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 4:33 PM, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

It lasts precisely 687.2 km. Then you adjust them again.

That twice a month.

Lou