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Better Braking?



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Better Braking?

On 2/2/2020 5:12 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 2:05:05 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"


Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.


I don't get why you hate things that work better.


Really Jay, don't you figured that out by now? Let me remind you. Frank thinks that all the new stuff make cycling unnecessary complicated, expensive and unreliable and it is all forced upon us by marketing (duh...) and he has the uncontrollable urge to warn/protect us from that. He knows this not from own experience but from his ignorant clubmembers who ended up with the wrong bike or one of his good friends that also ended up with something too complicated for them despite they all happen to have a degree in math, electronics, software or worse they are a poet or musician (WTF?).
If you mention that discbrakes are superior in the wet in combination with CF rims which we all know is a fact then the 'discussion' starts:
Frank:'why do you need CF rims?',
Jay: 'because high profile CF rims are more aero without the weight penalty',
Frank: 'does it make you faster?',
Jay: 'Yes',
Frank: 'do you have numbers',
Jay: 'it is measured several times in TOUR magazin, you can look them up',
Frank: 'the numbers are insignifant for most of us and not worth the trouble or cost',
Jay gives up......

If you start a conversation with Frank enthusiastic mentioning your new bike you get depressed within minutes.


I could see a person getting depressed when they realized the extra 0.2
kph really didn't matter. IOW, that they'd spent all that money and gone
to all that trouble for a negligible benefit.

It would be like "Damn, my car now has an air dam and a new rear wing
and vortex generators and racing stripes, and I still have to drive the
speed limit! And worse, the chicks still don't want to date me!"

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #62  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Better Braking?

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.


And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #63  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Better Braking?

On 2/1/2020 5:26 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 11:08:31 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM,
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also standard procedure to toe-in brake shoes at all the bicycle
shops I ever worked at. Those brakes included side-pull ones as well as cantilever ones.

IIRC, it was also a standard procedure in just about every bicycling book
printed in the 1980s.

Perhaps as brake calipers got better and more rigid toe-in isn't needed as much?

Cheers


Maybe. I’d go with Andrew’s recommendation and if the brakes work well and
don’t squeal, forget about it and go ride.


Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by choosing another brake pad compound.


I wonder if the squeal _could_ have been solved with toe-in? Your
phrasing doesn't tell us if you tried.

I agree it might not have helped with the first XT linkage V-brakes. One
friend of mine - a guy with more money than sense - proudly bought a
bike with those. The noise was beyond irritating.

But for a time, those brakes were fashionable! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #64  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Better Braking?

On 2/1/2020 8:55 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 22:54:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And I'm not sure what Tim meant when characterizing the lack of a
straddle wire as a benefit. I don't see any great detriment in a
straddle wire, especially if it's set up correctly.


Straddle wires aren't usually set up correctly, from my observation.
This results in wasted lever motion taking up the slack befor eeffective
pressure is applied to the rim.


I agree, they usually aren't set up correctly. Maybe its because it
takes a few minutes, so bike shop guys aren't interested. And owners
could easily do it, but probably haven't thought about it. But
pre-shaping for straight line straddle cables does make the brakes feel
better.


Right, the reduced tension results in a lighter lever feel. Also, the
radius of cable housing bends also affects friction.


I'm not sure the radius of the bend does affect friction. I know that's
counterintuitive, but the relevant equation doesn't have a "radius" term.

The equation is that of a cable sliding over a round friction surface.
That equation is T1 = T2 * e^(f*theta) where T1 is the high tension on
the side you're pulling, T2 is the lower tension the other side of the
friction scraping, f is the coefficient of friction and theta the angle
through which the cable is in contact with the surface. Again, note that
there is no term for the radius of curvature.

Sometimes these fundamental physics equations omit certain
practicalities. I guess one possibility is that the equation above
assumes no stiffness in the cable. But it's not clear to me (without
doing more work than I want to do) how moderate stiffness would change that.

We need to book some time in Fogel Labs!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #65  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Posts: 853
Default Better Braking?

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 8:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly
in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"


Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc
CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger
tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that
literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement
and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


That's fine, and I"ve acknowledged two things repeatedly: Discs do work
better in a few situations, and you, Jay, ride frequently in one or more
of those situations.

Most people never ride in situations where discs are better. Yet tons of
people are buying biked with disc brakes, partly because they're told to
and partly because other choices are constantly getting more uncommon.

It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.


I don't get why you hate things that work better. I like all my gears.
I like my discs, and I love STI. Threadless is way easier to work on,
and quills don't get stuck.


If you re-read, you'll see I wasn't alluding to threadless headsets
(which are a better system than threaded). I was alluding to integrated
headsets that are buried in the frame, so you don't have to look at that
unsightly thing while you ride. Or maybe so it reduces your aero drag
force by a micropound.

But regarding your gears: Do you love the 11th one so much that you were
pining for it when you had only ten back there? Somehow I doubt it. You
probably thought "Whoa, now I've got 10!" and it was marvelous until
they came out with 11.



Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front
derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of
gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27
speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-(

It reminds me of the car ads of the 1950s: "Wouldn't you rather have
THIS year's model?" And it's not new. The idea dates to the depression.
https://timeline.com/gm-invented-pla...e-cc19f207e842
One of the things I loved about bicycling is that it hadn't bought into
that nonsense.

And it's not that I hate things that are "better." I tend to think of
benefits vs. detriments, as opposed to _only_ the supposed benefits. And
I value things like backward compatibility, repairability, long life,
etc. "Better" to me is a net calculation, not ignoring one side of a
balance sheet.

I'm not an early adopter, but when things break or get stolen or wear
out, I'll upgrade. There are some proprietary things I don't like, and I
could have stayed with threaded BBs, but I'm fine with the press-in
formats on my newer bikes. I don't know a single person who upgraded one
cog at a time like your imaginary racer-consumers.


The I know people buy this aren't racers. They are people who want to go
out for social rides with friends. Some of them are even restricting
themselves to MUPs. But if they want something with better quality and
longevity than a *-mart BSO, they pretty much have to get a disc brake,
or spend several days finding a bike without one. They have to get twice
as many rear cogs as they'll ever need, with reduced cog and chain life
to match. Who knows? Depending on the next fashion, they may soon be
restricted to a 1x system, giving them a far smaller overall gear range.
(But it will be more aerodynamic!!!)

Time marches on! Go jump on a modern bike with discs and lots of gears
and even electronic shifting. See what you think.


Discs? I've ridden bikes with discs, and talked to guys riding them.
I've heard squeals, scrapes and odd, difficult to diagnose noises. I
talked to a guy who was left without brakes on a trip when his touring
bike burned through disc pads far sooner than he expected. I felt the
sudden "Whoa!" deceleration that taught me I had to operate the lever as
if I were squeezing a baby's hand. I perceived all those as negatives.
I've never had a friend describe a moment when a disc offered a benefit.
And I didn't experience any benefits - but then, I don't experience
significant detriments with my own brakes.

Lots of gears? My bikes top out at 9 cogs, but I do far more miles on
two bikes that have just 5 cogs. The 9 do not make me dislike the 5.
Maybe I'm just more tolerant of cadence variations. (Heck, I ride a
three speed around town.) And even if I found Di2 to be very snappy, I
can't imagine buying into a bike system that used a computer interface.

To me, riding a bike is a simple joy. I'm really not interested in
complicating my bikes with (say) five different bottom bracket
standards. I don't like the idea of cascading incompatibilities - like
fewer spokes pushing carbon rims requiring disc brakes requiring new
levers and through axles.

All this for what? So I can fly by the scenery 0.3 mph faster? I'd
rather look at the scenery a little longer.




  #66  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Better Braking?

On 2/2/2020 8:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

But regarding your gears: Do you love the 11th one so much that you were
pining for it when you had only ten back there? Somehow I doubt it. You
probably thought "Whoa, now I've got 10!" and it was marvelous until
they came out with 11.



Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front
derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of
gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27
speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-(


We're in this together! (Think how I feel with 15!)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #67  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Better Braking?

On Sunday, 2 February 2020 20:41:51 UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Snipped

Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front
derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of
gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27
speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-(

Snipped

Many people thought that way with 15 gears, 18 gears, 21 gear or 24 gears.

I like 27 gears or 18 gears with 9 gears on the rear. With that I can set up my bike as though it was a 21 speed (with triple crank) or 14 gears (with double crank) and use larger cogs on the other gears as bailout gears. To me that's the best of two worlds.

Cassettes and chains of 10, 11, or 12 gears are of no interest to me as I also have no interest in 29ers. that's because after looking at the cost of replacement components I felt the expense was way to high for me.

I was fortunate in that a fellow who lived 5 miles outside of town (he's now deceased) sold refurbished bicycles for $40.00 Canadian and i bought a number of them from him. They had 21 speeds and the components were old-school Deore. I have enough MTB/touring shifters, derailleurs and 7-speed cassettes to last me the rest of my life.

I was even able to get a couple of really nice road bikes from him for very little or free. One bicycle I got for $30.00 Canadian was a Miyata Seven Ten with unmounted brand new tires with the card tags still wrapped around them. He gave me some other dropbar road bicycles because no one wanted them.. Everyone wanted hybrids or MTBs to ride because of the rough roads.

Cheers
  #68  
Old February 3rd 20, 05:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Better Braking?

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.


And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!



Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #69  
Old February 3rd 20, 07:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
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Posts: 1,563
Default Better Braking?

On 02/02/2020 23:59, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:05:04 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 02/02/2020 01:18, John B. wrote:

snip

I have, for years, used a Chinese brake pad that looks very much
like a "cool stop" and used to fuss about with toe in until one day I
was in a hurry and didn't bother and there was no squeal and have
never bothered since. As someone else mentioned, mount the pads,
squeeze the brakes against the rim and tighten the pad mounting screw
and ride away. -- cheers,


Got a link for those?


No I don't. I came across them in some shop or another and bought them
and they seemed to work very well so bought some spares and have
continued to use them.

Note: I don't remember the price but I do remember that I thought that
they were "expensive" so perhaps kool stops from Amazon at $12 a set
would be equal. Or depending on your brakes kool stop inserts, if they
would fit.


It was more that around my way the Salmons disappeared. For the Super
Galaxy I really like them and am needing replacements. They *do* seem
to work better than most. I'll have a Goggle meself.


  #70  
Old February 3rd 20, 09:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Better Braking?

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:20:43 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 5:26 PM, wrote:



Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by choosing another brake pad compound.


I wonder if the squeal _could_ have been solved with toe-in? Your
phrasing doesn't tell us if you tried.


Off course I tried because that was considered the solution for squealing brakes. I even bought the Tacx toe-in tool:
https://tacx.com/nl/product/brakeshoe-tuner/


I agree it might not have helped with the first XT linkage V-brakes. One
friend of mine - a guy with more money than sense - proudly bought a
bike with those. The noise was beyond irritating.

But for a time, those brakes were fashionable! :-)


Came with my first ATB I bought second hand.

Lou
 




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