#61
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Better Braking?
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#62
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Better Braking?
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:
The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight. And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience! And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks! Thank God for 0.06% improvements! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#64
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Better Braking?
On 2/1/2020 8:55 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 22:54:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: And I'm not sure what Tim meant when characterizing the lack of a straddle wire as a benefit. I don't see any great detriment in a straddle wire, especially if it's set up correctly. Straddle wires aren't usually set up correctly, from my observation. This results in wasted lever motion taking up the slack befor eeffective pressure is applied to the rim. I agree, they usually aren't set up correctly. Maybe its because it takes a few minutes, so bike shop guys aren't interested. And owners could easily do it, but probably haven't thought about it. But pre-shaping for straight line straddle cables does make the brakes feel better. Right, the reduced tension results in a lighter lever feel. Also, the radius of cable housing bends also affects friction. I'm not sure the radius of the bend does affect friction. I know that's counterintuitive, but the relevant equation doesn't have a "radius" term. The equation is that of a cable sliding over a round friction surface. That equation is T1 = T2 * e^(f*theta) where T1 is the high tension on the side you're pulling, T2 is the lower tension the other side of the friction scraping, f is the coefficient of friction and theta the angle through which the cable is in contact with the surface. Again, note that there is no term for the radius of curvature. Sometimes these fundamental physics equations omit certain practicalities. I guess one possibility is that the equation above assumes no stiffness in the cable. But it's not clear to me (without doing more work than I want to do) how moderate stiffness would change that. We need to book some time in Fogel Labs! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#65
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Better Braking?
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 8:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc brakes." I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're better." Or maybe "... safer." You suspect? Why not just ask them? Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when they get back. The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders. Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better, especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!" Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill. That's fine, and I"ve acknowledged two things repeatedly: Discs do work better in a few situations, and you, Jay, ride frequently in one or more of those situations. Most people never ride in situations where discs are better. Yet tons of people are buying biked with disc brakes, partly because they're told to and partly because other choices are constantly getting more uncommon. It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!" Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The justification came later. I don't get why you hate things that work better. I like all my gears. I like my discs, and I love STI. Threadless is way easier to work on, and quills don't get stuck. If you re-read, you'll see I wasn't alluding to threadless headsets (which are a better system than threaded). I was alluding to integrated headsets that are buried in the frame, so you don't have to look at that unsightly thing while you ride. Or maybe so it reduces your aero drag force by a micropound. But regarding your gears: Do you love the 11th one so much that you were pining for it when you had only ten back there? Somehow I doubt it. You probably thought "Whoa, now I've got 10!" and it was marvelous until they came out with 11. Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27 speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-( It reminds me of the car ads of the 1950s: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?" And it's not new. The idea dates to the depression. https://timeline.com/gm-invented-pla...e-cc19f207e842 One of the things I loved about bicycling is that it hadn't bought into that nonsense. And it's not that I hate things that are "better." I tend to think of benefits vs. detriments, as opposed to _only_ the supposed benefits. And I value things like backward compatibility, repairability, long life, etc. "Better" to me is a net calculation, not ignoring one side of a balance sheet. I'm not an early adopter, but when things break or get stolen or wear out, I'll upgrade. There are some proprietary things I don't like, and I could have stayed with threaded BBs, but I'm fine with the press-in formats on my newer bikes. I don't know a single person who upgraded one cog at a time like your imaginary racer-consumers. The I know people buy this aren't racers. They are people who want to go out for social rides with friends. Some of them are even restricting themselves to MUPs. But if they want something with better quality and longevity than a *-mart BSO, they pretty much have to get a disc brake, or spend several days finding a bike without one. They have to get twice as many rear cogs as they'll ever need, with reduced cog and chain life to match. Who knows? Depending on the next fashion, they may soon be restricted to a 1x system, giving them a far smaller overall gear range. (But it will be more aerodynamic!!!) Time marches on! Go jump on a modern bike with discs and lots of gears and even electronic shifting. See what you think. Discs? I've ridden bikes with discs, and talked to guys riding them. I've heard squeals, scrapes and odd, difficult to diagnose noises. I talked to a guy who was left without brakes on a trip when his touring bike burned through disc pads far sooner than he expected. I felt the sudden "Whoa!" deceleration that taught me I had to operate the lever as if I were squeezing a baby's hand. I perceived all those as negatives. I've never had a friend describe a moment when a disc offered a benefit. And I didn't experience any benefits - but then, I don't experience significant detriments with my own brakes. Lots of gears? My bikes top out at 9 cogs, but I do far more miles on two bikes that have just 5 cogs. The 9 do not make me dislike the 5. Maybe I'm just more tolerant of cadence variations. (Heck, I ride a three speed around town.) And even if I found Di2 to be very snappy, I can't imagine buying into a bike system that used a computer interface. To me, riding a bike is a simple joy. I'm really not interested in complicating my bikes with (say) five different bottom bracket standards. I don't like the idea of cascading incompatibilities - like fewer spokes pushing carbon rims requiring disc brakes requiring new levers and through axles. All this for what? So I can fly by the scenery 0.3 mph faster? I'd rather look at the scenery a little longer. |
#66
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Better Braking?
On 2/2/2020 8:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: But regarding your gears: Do you love the 11th one so much that you were pining for it when you had only ten back there? Somehow I doubt it. You probably thought "Whoa, now I've got 10!" and it was marvelous until they came out with 11. Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27 speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-( We're in this together! (Think how I feel with 15!) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#67
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Better Braking?
On Sunday, 2 February 2020 20:41:51 UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Snipped Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27 speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-( Snipped Many people thought that way with 15 gears, 18 gears, 21 gear or 24 gears. I like 27 gears or 18 gears with 9 gears on the rear. With that I can set up my bike as though it was a 21 speed (with triple crank) or 14 gears (with double crank) and use larger cogs on the other gears as bailout gears. To me that's the best of two worlds. Cassettes and chains of 10, 11, or 12 gears are of no interest to me as I also have no interest in 29ers. that's because after looking at the cost of replacement components I felt the expense was way to high for me. I was fortunate in that a fellow who lived 5 miles outside of town (he's now deceased) sold refurbished bicycles for $40.00 Canadian and i bought a number of them from him. They had 21 speeds and the components were old-school Deore. I have enough MTB/touring shifters, derailleurs and 7-speed cassettes to last me the rest of my life. I was even able to get a couple of really nice road bikes from him for very little or free. One bicycle I got for $30.00 Canadian was a Miyata Seven Ten with unmounted brand new tires with the card tags still wrapped around them. He gave me some other dropbar road bicycles because no one wanted them.. Everyone wanted hybrids or MTBs to ride because of the rough roads. Cheers |
#68
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Better Braking?
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight. And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience! And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks! Thank God for 0.06% improvements! Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers. -- Jay Beattie. |
#69
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Better Braking?
On 02/02/2020 23:59, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:05:04 +0100, Tosspot wrote: On 02/02/2020 01:18, John B. wrote: snip I have, for years, used a Chinese brake pad that looks very much like a "cool stop" and used to fuss about with toe in until one day I was in a hurry and didn't bother and there was no squeal and have never bothered since. As someone else mentioned, mount the pads, squeeze the brakes against the rim and tighten the pad mounting screw and ride away. -- cheers, Got a link for those? No I don't. I came across them in some shop or another and bought them and they seemed to work very well so bought some spares and have continued to use them. Note: I don't remember the price but I do remember that I thought that they were "expensive" so perhaps kool stops from Amazon at $12 a set would be equal. Or depending on your brakes kool stop inserts, if they would fit. It was more that around my way the Salmons disappeared. For the Super Galaxy I really like them and am needing replacements. They *do* seem to work better than most. I'll have a Goggle meself. |
#70
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Better Braking?
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:20:43 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 5:26 PM, wrote: Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by choosing another brake pad compound. I wonder if the squeal _could_ have been solved with toe-in? Your phrasing doesn't tell us if you tried. Off course I tried because that was considered the solution for squealing brakes. I even bought the Tacx toe-in tool: https://tacx.com/nl/product/brakeshoe-tuner/ I agree it might not have helped with the first XT linkage V-brakes. One friend of mine - a guy with more money than sense - proudly bought a bike with those. The noise was beyond irritating. But for a time, those brakes were fashionable! :-) Came with my first ATB I bought second hand. Lou |
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