9/10/11/12 Speed Gruppo

On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 4:47:48 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:17:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:11:22 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:49:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:04:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:14:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 9:30:11 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency" at
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf
has persuaded me that I will not be buying a 12- or 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed.

Andre Jute
My Rohloff Speed 14 chainline is straight

I can't find the testing now but Connex did some tests of their 11 speed chains and had almost no losses from full cross chained to straight chains. Over the years they have developed the science of chains so well that they are so flexible that you simply don't get much in the way of loses.

This is proven by their wear tests as well since the wear test includes pushing the chains all of the way from one extreme to the other. https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg


You didn't read the test. It did not include cross chaining as you
say. See:
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html

If you had read the frigging test you would have (if you can
comprehend what you read) seen that the test used:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Or in simple terms, that you might understand, one sprocket in the
front and one in the back. No cross chaining whatsoever.

--
cheers,

John B.

That must be why the magazine description of the testing said that the chains were moved from 3" in one direction and then 3" in the other. Funny thing how actually watching the tests done seems to show things that might not otherwise be mentioned. But I'm sure that you know much more than the people who actually attended the testing. Just like Frank knows a great deal more about the height of tree limbs above the bike lane than someone that was actually struck by the limb. Between the two of you, you lick the platter clean don't you?

Nope: You said

"Wippermann-connex-chain-11-speed-wear-test-results.jpg" which shows
the results of a test using only a drive and driven sprocket. As I
pointed out in my reference (above) the test consisted of:
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links

The test with several driven sprockets and the resulting loss in power
from cross chaining was a totally different test and conducted by
CeramicSpeed. Not Whippermann.
see:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/05/gea...etrains_493185
I believe that the original testing was done by Jason Smith at his
company "FrictionFacts", which he sold to CeramicSpeed in 2014.

In short Tom, just as I've been saying all these years, "You simply do
not know what you are talking about".

I might add that there was a long discussion of the cross chaining
test right here in RBT.
--
cheers,

John B.

the tests at Wiperman we

- An in-line 5 hour run with original lubrication.
- A offset test to both left and right side for 5 min at 50 Hz and then 10 hours at 100 Hz after independent applications of water, oil and sand to the chain.
- An inline 15 hour test at 100 Hz with above mentioned pollutants, which is then repeated every 15 hours after cleaning until chains show a 1% change (or 8mm increase from DIN specified length of 800.10 mm). This change happens due to wear of pins against the roller.

Wait a minute - did it say something about left and right? Apparently your Alzheimer's is getting worse.

Strange, isn't it that you posted a reference to the wippermann-connex
test:
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg
Which doesn't mention anything about the equipment used or how the
test was accomplished.
I searched for some details of that test and I found
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html
Which contains a reference to the pretty picture that you referenced
and includes the details:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Now you come up with all kind of details that aren't mentioned by the
"connexchain site".

Is this another Tommy moment? Where you don't remember and just make
it up?
--
cheers,

John B.

Wipperman has completely addressed their tests and how they are performed. All of the methods and equipment they use is covered. That they use steel and chainwheels so that the subject of wear is solely the chains and not the gears.

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

But perhaps it does. Wasn't that the good Dr. Joseph Goebbels' theory?
Repeat a lie enough times and eventually it becomes the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:56:01 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

John "corrected" my information by ignoring the part of the test procedure that said that they moved the cog back and forth 3" at ten hertz for some time and then increased that to 100 hertz.

I suppose John is too stupid to understand that and simulating shifting through the gears. And that test to be about the same as 10 times the worst possible case.

Aren't you going to look like the usual damn fool when Trump is re-elected by a margin as large as Reagan was in his second election? In the Iowa caucuses (in a deep blue state) the total votes for all of the Democrat Candidates was about 90,000. For the Trump speech he gave there just before that the Republican Campaign Committee received requests for 175,000 tickets. Or maybe you, like Jay, can't accomplish simple arithmetic? Most Bernie supporters are college age kids who can't vote or who probably won't because Sanders will NEVER get the nomination. And if he does no one other than those Bernie supporters will vote for him. So you idiots are damned in any case. You're so stupid you haven't even watched the Democrat debates where Bloomdoggle hit the mark about Bernie's socialism - he owns three homes including a summer home at the Cape and flies everywhere in a private jet lecturing everyone about man-made climate change.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:43:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:56:01 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

John "corrected" my information by ignoring the part of the test procedure that said that they moved the cog back and forth 3" at ten hertz for some time and then increased that to 100 hertz.

I suppose John is too stupid to understand that and simulating shifting through the gears. And that test to be about the same as 10 times the worst possible case.

Aren't you going to look like the usual damn fool when Trump is re-elected by a margin as large as Reagan was in his second election? In the Iowa caucuses (in a deep blue state) the total votes for all of the Democrat Candidates was about 90,000. For the Trump speech he gave there just before that the Republican Campaign Committee received requests for 175,000 tickets. Or maybe you, like Jay, can't accomplish simple arithmetic? Most Bernie supporters are college age kids who can't vote or who probably won't because Sanders will NEVER get the nomination. And if he does no one other than those Bernie supporters will vote for him. So you idiots are damned in any case. You're so stupid you haven't even watched the Democrat debates where Bloomdoggle hit the mark about Bernie's socialism - he owns three homes including a summer home at the Cape and flies everywhere in a private jet lecturing everyone about man-made climate change.

Well, I don't know what Trump has to do with bicycle chains... unless
it is the fact that Trump tells lies and you tell lies about chain
tests...

I reckon another 4 years under Trump and the U.S. economy will be
laying by the roadside. Already the auto companies are closing
factories... and the Japanese and Chinese are opening them, even
Harley Davidson has opened an operation in Asia to evade the high
costs of doing business in the U.S. U.S. steel manufacturing that
people go on about is 1/4 that of China and also less than either the
E.U., Japan, or India. The embargo against Chinese made goods
resulted in a nearly 50 percent reduction in exported U.S. farm
products and China finding new sources at a cheaper price than U.S.
products. And, and, and.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2/24/2020 7:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:43:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:56:01 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

John "corrected" my information by ignoring the part of the test procedure that said that they moved the cog back and forth 3" at ten hertz for some time and then increased that to 100 hertz.

I suppose John is too stupid to understand that and simulating shifting through the gears. And that test to be about the same as 10 times the worst possible case.

Aren't you going to look like the usual damn fool when Trump is re-elected by a margin as large as Reagan was in his second election? In the Iowa caucuses (in a deep blue state) the total votes for all of the Democrat Candidates was about 90,000. For the Trump speech he gave there just before that the Republican Campaign Committee received requests for 175,000 tickets. Or maybe you, like Jay, can't accomplish simple arithmetic? Most Bernie supporters are college age kids who can't vote or who probably won't because Sanders will NEVER get the nomination. And if he does no one other than those Bernie supporters will vote for him. So you idiots are damned in any case. You're so stupid you haven't even watched the Democrat debates where Bloomdoggle hit the mark about Bernie's socialism - he owns three homes including a summer home at the Cape and flies everywhere in a private jet lecturing everyone about man-made climate change.

Well, I don't know what Trump has to do with bicycle chains... unless
it is the fact that Trump tells lies and you tell lies about chain
tests...

I reckon another 4 years under Trump and the U.S. economy will be
laying by the roadside. Already the auto companies are closing
factories... and the Japanese and Chinese are opening them, even
Harley Davidson has opened an operation in Asia to evade the high
costs of doing business in the U.S. U.S. steel manufacturing that
people go on about is 1/4 that of China and also less than either the
E.U., Japan, or India. The embargo against Chinese made goods
resulted in a nearly 50 percent reduction in exported U.S. farm
products and China finding new sources at a cheaper price than U.S.
products. And, and, and.
--
cheers,

John B.


Fortunately, as men differ in outlook, we have futures
markets. You ought to short GM, Ford and Fiat - note on
futures with any significant price movement the leverage can
bring gargantuan profits.


(I agree with you that Harley has some very deep troubles
which are not going to get better any time soon. Not so
sure about the Big Two and Fiat has so many big chunks of
gold and lead flying straight at it right now, there are no
reasonable bets. Lucky maybe but not reasonable. Marchione
was a genius but he's dead and no one else can do it.)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:55:59 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 4:47:48 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:17:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:11:22 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:49:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:04:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:14:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 9:30:11 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency" at
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf
has persuaded me that I will not be buying a 12- or 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed.

Andre Jute
My Rohloff Speed 14 chainline is straight

I can't find the testing now but Connex did some tests of their 11 speed chains and had almost no losses from full cross chained to straight chains. Over the years they have developed the science of chains so well that they are so flexible that you simply don't get much in the way of loses.

This is proven by their wear tests as well since the wear test includes pushing the chains all of the way from one extreme to the other. https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg


You didn't read the test. It did not include cross chaining as you
say. See:
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html

If you had read the frigging test you would have (if you can
comprehend what you read) seen that the test used:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Or in simple terms, that you might understand, one sprocket in the
front and one in the back. No cross chaining whatsoever.

--
cheers,

John B.

That must be why the magazine description of the testing said that the chains were moved from 3" in one direction and then 3" in the other. Funny thing how actually watching the tests done seems to show things that might not otherwise be mentioned. But I'm sure that you know much more than the people who actually attended the testing. Just like Frank knows a great deal more about the height of tree limbs above the bike lane than someone that was actually struck by the limb. Between the two of you, you lick the platter clean don't you?

Nope: You said

"Wippermann-connex-chain-11-speed-wear-test-results.jpg" which shows
the results of a test using only a drive and driven sprocket. As I
pointed out in my reference (above) the test consisted of:
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links

The test with several driven sprockets and the resulting loss in power
from cross chaining was a totally different test and conducted by
CeramicSpeed. Not Whippermann.
see:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/05/gea...etrains_493185
I believe that the original testing was done by Jason Smith at his
company "FrictionFacts", which he sold to CeramicSpeed in 2014.

In short Tom, just as I've been saying all these years, "You simply do
not know what you are talking about".

I might add that there was a long discussion of the cross chaining
test right here in RBT.
--
cheers,

John B.

the tests at Wiperman we

- An in-line 5 hour run with original lubrication.
- A offset test to both left and right side for 5 min at 50 Hz and then 10 hours at 100 Hz after independent applications of water, oil and sand to the chain.
- An inline 15 hour test at 100 Hz with above mentioned pollutants, which is then repeated every 15 hours after cleaning until chains show a 1% change (or 8mm increase from DIN specified length of 800.10 mm). This change happens due to wear of pins against the roller.

Wait a minute - did it say something about left and right? Apparently your Alzheimer's is getting worse.

Strange, isn't it that you posted a reference to the wippermann-connex
test:
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg
Which doesn't mention anything about the equipment used or how the
test was accomplished.
I searched for some details of that test and I found
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html
Which contains a reference to the pretty picture that you referenced
and includes the details:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Now you come up with all kind of details that aren't mentioned by the
"connexchain site".

Is this another Tommy moment? Where you don't remember and just make
it up?
--
cheers,

John B.

Wipperman has completely addressed their tests and how they are performed. All of the methods and equipment they use is covered. That they use steel and chainwheels so that the subject of wear is solely the chains and not the gears.

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

The Washington Post has it that the CinC has made some 16,219 false or
misleading claims since assuming office. As of 17 Jan 2020. :-(

But perhaps it does. Wasn't that the good Dr. Joseph Goebbels' theory?
Repeat a lie enough times and eventually it becomes the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 19:35:14 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/24/2020 7:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:43:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:56:01 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

John "corrected" my information by ignoring the part of the test procedure that said that they moved the cog back and forth 3" at ten hertz for some time and then increased that to 100 hertz.

I suppose John is too stupid to understand that and simulating shifting through the gears. And that test to be about the same as 10 times the worst possible case.

Aren't you going to look like the usual damn fool when Trump is re-elected by a margin as large as Reagan was in his second election? In the Iowa caucuses (in a deep blue state) the total votes for all of the Democrat Candidates was about 90,000. For the Trump speech he gave there just before that the Republican Campaign Committee received requests for 175,000 tickets. Or maybe you, like Jay, can't accomplish simple arithmetic? Most Bernie supporters are college age kids who can't vote or who probably won't because Sanders will NEVER get the nomination. And if he does no one other than those Bernie supporters will vote for him. So you idiots are damned in any case. You're so stupid you haven't even watched the Democrat debates where Bloomdoggle hit the mark about Bernie's socialism - he owns three homes including a summer home at the Cape and flies everywhere in a private jet lecturing everyone about man-made climate change.

Well, I don't know what Trump has to do with bicycle chains... unless
it is the fact that Trump tells lies and you tell lies about chain
tests...

I reckon another 4 years under Trump and the U.S. economy will be
laying by the roadside. Already the auto companies are closing
factories... and the Japanese and Chinese are opening them, even
Harley Davidson has opened an operation in Asia to evade the high
costs of doing business in the U.S. U.S. steel manufacturing that
people go on about is 1/4 that of China and also less than either the
E.U., Japan, or India. The embargo against Chinese made goods
resulted in a nearly 50 percent reduction in exported U.S. farm
products and China finding new sources at a cheaper price than U.S.
products. And, and, and.
--
cheers,

John B.


Fortunately, as men differ in outlook, we have futures
markets. You ought to short GM, Ford and Fiat - note on
futures with any significant price movement the leverage can
bring gargantuan profits.

And gargantuan losses :-)

(I agree with you that Harley has some very deep troubles
which are not going to get better any time soon. Not so
sure about the Big Two and Fiat has so many big chunks of
gold and lead flying straight at it right now, there are no
reasonable bets. Lucky maybe but not reasonable. Marchione
was a genius but he's dead and no one else can do it.)

When you sell motorcycles for about the same price as other's sell
cars for it takes a great deal of faith to assume that one will be a
success :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 25/02/2020 02:52, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:55:59 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 4:47:48 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:17:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:11:22 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:49:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:04:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:14:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 9:30:11 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency" at
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf
has persuaded me that I will not be buying a 12- or 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed.

Andre Jute
My Rohloff Speed 14 chainline is straight

I can't find the testing now but Connex did some tests of their 11 speed chains and had almost no losses from full cross chained to straight chains. Over the years they have developed the science of chains so well that they are so flexible that you simply don't get much in the way of loses.

This is proven by their wear tests as well since the wear test includes pushing the chains all of the way from one extreme to the other. https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg


You didn't read the test. It did not include cross chaining as you
say. See:
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html

If you had read the frigging test you would have (if you can
comprehend what you read) seen that the test used:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Or in simple terms, that you might understand, one sprocket in the
front and one in the back. No cross chaining whatsoever.

--
cheers,

John B.

That must be why the magazine description of the testing said that the chains were moved from 3" in one direction and then 3" in the other. Funny thing how actually watching the tests done seems to show things that might not otherwise be mentioned. But I'm sure that you know much more than the people who actually attended the testing. Just like Frank knows a great deal more about the height of tree limbs above the bike lane than someone that was actually struck by the limb. Between the two of you, you lick the platter clean don't you?

Nope: You said

"Wippermann-connex-chain-11-speed-wear-test-results.jpg" which shows
the results of a test using only a drive and driven sprocket. As I
pointed out in my reference (above) the test consisted of:
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links

The test with several driven sprockets and the resulting loss in power
from cross chaining was a totally different test and conducted by
CeramicSpeed. Not Whippermann.
see:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/05/gea...etrains_493185
I believe that the original testing was done by Jason Smith at his
company "FrictionFacts", which he sold to CeramicSpeed in 2014.

In short Tom, just as I've been saying all these years, "You simply do
not know what you are talking about".

I might add that there was a long discussion of the cross chaining
test right here in RBT.
--
cheers,

John B.

the tests at Wiperman we

- An in-line 5 hour run with original lubrication.
- A offset test to both left and right side for 5 min at 50 Hz and then 10 hours at 100 Hz after independent applications of water, oil and sand to the chain.
- An inline 15 hour test at 100 Hz with above mentioned pollutants, which is then repeated every 15 hours after cleaning until chains show a 1% change (or 8mm increase from DIN specified length of 800.10 mm). This change happens due to wear of pins against the roller.

Wait a minute - did it say something about left and right? Apparently your Alzheimer's is getting worse.

Strange, isn't it that you posted a reference to the wippermann-connex
test:
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg
Which doesn't mention anything about the equipment used or how the
test was accomplished.
I searched for some details of that test and I found
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html
Which contains a reference to the pretty picture that you referenced
and includes the details:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Now you come up with all kind of details that aren't mentioned by the
"connexchain site".

Is this another Tommy moment? Where you don't remember and just make
it up?
--
cheers,

John B.

Wipperman has completely addressed their tests and how they are performed. All of the methods and equipment they use is covered. That they use steel and chainwheels so that the subject of wear is solely the chains and not the gears.

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

The Washington Post has it that the CinC has made some 16,219 false or
misleading claims since assuming office. As of 17 Jan 2020. :-(

That's ridiculous it's around 15 a *day* you need to train for that sort
of performance! Or be terminally stupid, which he ain't.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 07:14:02 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 25/02/2020 02:52, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:55:59 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 24/02/2020 01:14, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:25:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 4:47:48 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:17:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:11:22 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:49:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:04:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:14:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 9:30:11 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
"Effects of Lateral Chain Misalignment (Cross-Chaining) on Drivetrain Efficiency & Effects of Chainring Size on Drivetrain Efficiency" at
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3...ize-report.pdf
has persuaded me that I will not be buying a 12- or 11-speed group! Nor 10-speed, nor even 9-speed.

Andre Jute
My Rohloff Speed 14 chainline is straight

I can't find the testing now but Connex did some tests of their 11 speed chains and had almost no losses from full cross chained to straight chains. Over the years they have developed the science of chains so well that they are so flexible that you simply don't get much in the way of loses.

This is proven by their wear tests as well since the wear test includes pushing the chains all of the way from one extreme to the other. https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg


You didn't read the test. It did not include cross chaining as you
say. See:
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html

If you had read the frigging test you would have (if you can
comprehend what you read) seen that the test used:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Or in simple terms, that you might understand, one sprocket in the
front and one in the back. No cross chaining whatsoever.

--
cheers,

John B.

That must be why the magazine description of the testing said that the chains were moved from 3" in one direction and then 3" in the other. Funny thing how actually watching the tests done seems to show things that might not otherwise be mentioned. But I'm sure that you know much more than the people who actually attended the testing. Just like Frank knows a great deal more about the height of tree limbs above the bike lane than someone that was actually struck by the limb. Between the two of you, you lick the platter clean don't you?

Nope: You said

"Wippermann-connex-chain-11-speed-wear-test-results.jpg" which shows
the results of a test using only a drive and driven sprocket. As I
pointed out in my reference (above) the test consisted of:
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links

The test with several driven sprockets and the resulting loss in power
from cross chaining was a totally different test and conducted by
CeramicSpeed. Not Whippermann.
see:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/05/gea...etrains_493185
I believe that the original testing was done by Jason Smith at his
company "FrictionFacts", which he sold to CeramicSpeed in 2014.

In short Tom, just as I've been saying all these years, "You simply do
not know what you are talking about".

I might add that there was a long discussion of the cross chaining
test right here in RBT.
--
cheers,

John B.

the tests at Wiperman we

- An in-line 5 hour run with original lubrication.
- A offset test to both left and right side for 5 min at 50 Hz and then 10 hours at 100 Hz after independent applications of water, oil and sand to the chain.
- An inline 15 hour test at 100 Hz with above mentioned pollutants, which is then repeated every 15 hours after cleaning until chains show a 1% change (or 8mm increase from DIN specified length of 800.10 mm). This change happens due to wear of pins against the roller.

Wait a minute - did it say something about left and right? Apparently your Alzheimer's is getting worse.

Strange, isn't it that you posted a reference to the wippermann-connex
test:
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...st-results.jpg
Which doesn't mention anything about the equipment used or how the
test was accomplished.
I searched for some details of that test and I found
https://www.connexchain.com/en/tests...ance-test.html
Which contains a reference to the pretty picture that you referenced
and includes the details:

drive train
front chain ring: 52 teeth
back sprocket: 17 teeth
test chain: 63 links
reference chain: 63 links

Now you come up with all kind of details that aren't mentioned by the
"connexchain site".

Is this another Tommy moment? Where you don't remember and just make
it up?
--
cheers,

John B.

Wipperman has completely addressed their tests and how they are performed. All of the methods and equipment they use is covered. That they use steel and chainwheels so that the subject of wear is solely the chains and not the gears.

If you're too stupid to find the information don't expect others to hold you cold wet clammy hands.

Nice try Tommy, but I was the one that found the evidence and
corrected your false claims... which is, of course, why you are
ranting and raving and making the same claims over and over. It is
called a "cover up" in the trade.

You seem to have the childish notion that repeating a falsehood over
and over and over makes it true.

Is he a Maggot? Seems to work for the CinC so why not for everyone else?

The Washington Post has it that the CinC has made some 16,219 false or
misleading claims since assuming office. As of 17 Jan 2020. :-(

That's ridiculous it's around 15 a *day* you need to train for that sort
of performance! Or be terminally stupid, which he ain't.

Read
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...aims-database/
They list by subject, on a daily, monthly or cumulative basis
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 6:14:05 AM UTC, Tosspot wrote:

That's ridiculous it's around 15 a *day* you need to train for that sort
of performance! Or be terminally stupid, which he ain't.

I think Mr Trump says outrageous things on purpose to give the Dems and the Never Trumpers thromboses. What these losers, who insist that the President should behave in the manner they prescribe, don't seem to grasp is that he made an election promise to clean up the swamp, and they're the swamp creatures he promised to dispose of. I'm not impressed with that list of Trump's "lies" -- by their standards Mrs Clinton lies every time she breathes out and has Mr Trump beat hollow by breakfast-time. American hypocrisy, never a small thing, has since Mr Trump reinvented himself as a politician reached an inglorious peak.

Andre Jute
Lying scum are wrongos, even if they work in the media

On 2/25/2020 3:38 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 07:14:02 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 25/02/2020 02:52, John B. wrote:

The Washington Post has it that the CinC has made some 16,219 false or
misleading claims since assuming office. As of 17 Jan 2020. :-(

That's ridiculous it's around 15 a *day* you need to train for that sort
of performance! Or be terminally stupid, which he ain't.

Read
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...aims-database/
They list by subject, on a daily, monthly or cumulative basis

Here's the trouble with that database of lies:

Look at the left column, Trump's false statements. They average perhaps
20 words each.

Look at the right column, the explanation of why Trump's statement is
false. They typically run 100 words, often more.

There's a large contingent in this country who struggle with reading
more than 20 words at a time. Trump plays to them.


--
- Frank Krygowski