#1
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No Helmets Needed?
Just curious: why does the HP Velotechnik site show photos of
helmetless riders? Anyone actually fell of a 'bent? Seems like a harder thing to do, no? I mean, don't you just put your foot down -- the body's so close to the ground as it is.... I'm still not sure how styrofoam is supposed to protect the head...why not wear a real helmet? Surely someone manufactures a lightweight helmet that's stronger and lighter than styrofoam? |
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#2
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No Helmets Needed?
NYC XYZ wrote:
Just curious: why does the HP Velotechnik site show photos of helmetless riders? Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding. Anyone actually fell of a 'bent? A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy unclipping disasters. Seems like a harder thing to do, no? Sliding out it's just as easy. I'm still not sure how styrofoam is supposed to protect the head...why not wear a real helmet? Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity. There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at www.cyclehelmets.org People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death often painted. Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#3
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No Helmets Needed?
Peter Clinch wrote: Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding. Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club forces you to wear helmets! Not only do they look dumb, and I have an oddly-shaped head besides that really defeats conventional helmet topologies (don't ask me what I had to do in the Army -- let's just say that I got headaches a lot), but...STYRO-FOAM?????? "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy unclipping disasters. Sliding out it's just as easy. Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than compared to an upright? To fall out/off. Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity. No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are "boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever -- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow. I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light (or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at www.cyclehelmets.org Cool, thanks! People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death often painted. I totally agree. They should go after those annoying "cell-phone drivers" instead! Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one. I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only, like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection in STYO-FOAM!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#4
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No Helmets Needed?
Peter Clinch wrote: Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding. Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club forces you to wear helmets! Not only do they look dumb, and I have an oddly-shaped head besides that really defeats conventional helmet topologies (don't ask me what I had to do in the Army -- let's just say that I got headaches a lot), but...STYRO-FOAM?????? "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy unclipping disasters. Sliding out it's just as easy. Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than compared to an upright? To fall out/off. Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity. No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are "boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever -- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow. I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light (or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at www.cyclehelmets.org Cool, thanks! People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death often painted. I totally agree. They should go after those annoying "cell-phone drivers" instead! Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one. I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only, like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection in STYRO-FOAM!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!" Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#5
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No Helmets Needed?
NYC XYZ wrote:
Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club forces you to wear helmets! In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets would raise the premium significantly. Even before the mandatory helmet rule, I'd estimate that at least 80% of the cyclists on club rides were wearing helmets anyway. It was not so much the wearing of the helmet that we objected to, it was being forced to do so. This is why compulsion is a bad idea. OTOH the high voluntary compliance rate in my club was probably an anomaly due to its location in Silicon Valley, where most of the club members had high levels of education. |
#6
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No Helmets Needed?
SMS wrote: NYC XYZ wrote: In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets would raise the premium significantly. Ah, great point! Why didn't I think of that! Yes, that's it for sure. Even before the mandatory helmet rule, I'd estimate that at least 80% of the cyclists on club rides were wearing helmets anyway. It was not so much the wearing of the helmet that we objected to, it was being forced to do so. This is why compulsion is a bad idea. OTOH the high voluntary compliance rate in my club was probably an anomaly due to its location in Silicon Valley, where most of the club members had high levels of education. Hmm...but Europeans are supposed better edjamacated than US-ians, and they're zipping around carefree. |
#7
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No Helmets Needed?
NYC XYZ wrote:
Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club forces you to wear helmets! As Steve Scharf suggests, this is probably about insurance. In the UK various insurers have tried threatening cyclists with contributory negligence claims when they've been injured while not wearing helmets, but as yet none of these have been successfully pressed. The main cycling organisation here, the Cycle Touring Club, has quite rigorously acted against such claims. Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than compared to an upright? To fall out/off. Depends what sort of falling off. A sideways slide on gravel is at least as easy, where flying over the bars is very difficult. On average I find I don't fall off any sort of bike very often except a mountain bike, and that's more a function of the terrain I'm not doing a very good job of than the bike! No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are "boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever -- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow. Helmets will work by load spreading and energy absorption. The latter will generally be far more effective than the former because there's only so much head you can spread the load over, and the neck will often take the whole lot at some point in any case. Polystyrene is actually pretty effective as an absorber, but it remains the case that in the sort of accidents that will get you killed it isn't good enough. Helmets have a track record of not doing anything much to rates of serious injuries in cycling populations, though I certainly wear mine if I go mountain biking because I expect to fall off and at the sort of low speeds the EN1078 spec is built to actually tangibly help. If you think you'll fall off wear a lid to prevent a nasty graze and a headache, but don't assume there's much chance of it saving your life. I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light (or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!! Stronger in the sense of ability to break it in your hands, yes, but better capable of absorbing energy? Unlikely. Most helmets made of tougher stuff have quite a bit of absorbing material as well as the shell, or have a fair bit of extra room and a cradle to spread the impact (like a site or climbing helmet, where it's a pretty safe assumption a primary impact will come from above) I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it Nothing stopping you organise your own rides, of course. One thing to bear in mind with 'bents is they have rather different performance characteristics to typical uprights. You'll typically be slower up hills, faster into headwinds and down hills. This can be a problem for all concerned if you're on a group tour on a hilly, windy circuit, depending on how much folk are happy to wait up and take it at a slowest pace. Lower machines can make life a little more awkward to speak to folk next to you, and the fact that other folk can't draft you can be an annoyance to some, though it'll depend on the group. Something to bear in mind if you're into group riding though. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#8
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No Helmets Needed?
NYC XYZ wrote:
I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only, like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection in STYRO-FOAM!!!!! Go buy a TV. It'll be protected by styrofoam. As will most fragile electronics. It's an excellent material for the job. |
#9
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No Helmets Needed?
NYC XYZ wrote: SMS wrote: NYC XYZ wrote: In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets would raise the premium significantly. Ah, great point! Why didn't I think of that! Yes, that's it for sure. It's _possible_ that's it, but I'm not so sure. I ran a good-sized century ride for seven or eight years. We were LAB sanctioned and insured. (We even won a LAB award.) We did _not_ require helmets, and we were not told to do so. That was in the 1990s. To see if things changed, I poked around the LAB website. Here's the waiver form they want clubs to use for their organized rides: http://www.bikeleague.org/members/sample_waiver.pdf Search for "helmet." You'll find nothing. No requirements. I think the helmet requirements of most bike clubs are simply more of the same nonsense we see elsewhere. They're generated by true believers who have never looked into the issue beyond, say, "Safe Kids" promotional blurbs, and who smugly justify their odd costumes based on those blurbs. - Frank Krygowski |
#10
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No Helmets Needed?
Rich wrote: NYC XYZ wrote: I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only, like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection in STYRO-FOAM!!!!! Go buy a TV. Bad advice. Those things are tools of the devil! ;-) - Frank Krygowski |
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