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More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"



 
 
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  #61  
Old June 2nd 19, 04:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.


If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.


You have to make it too expensive plus too much trouble for cars in order to increase bicycle use. You need high taxes and high fuel costs plus fees to come into the city core and other fees on automobiles that countries in Europe with high bicycle use have.

Cheers
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  #62  
Old June 2nd 19, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers aswell as cyclists, study finds"

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.


If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.


In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane
  #63  
Old June 2nd 19, 05:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.


In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane


I'm not too familiar with Montreal. I have been to Ottawa a few times in years gone by and remember bike lanes that ran on the road, then up onto the sidewalks then back onto the roads. Interesting.

Cheers
  #64  
Old June 2nd 19, 05:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On 6/2/2019 11:45 AM, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:


In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg?


Again: Pittsburgh's increase in bike mode share occurred almost entirely
when there were no relevant bike facilities built. Once they started
being installed everywhere, commuting mode share stopped growing.

But to the true believers, that doesn't matter. They see some commuters,
they see some bike lanes, and they imagine cause and effect.

The causality may well be the other way round. Politicians see more
bicyclists than before, _then_ say "We should do something they'll like
so we get their votes - oh, and save the planet!" But if there's no
additional mode share after installation (as in the Burgh) then what has
been accomplished?

I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.


That's the same sort of problem that most of the country has - for half
the year and for most people, it's either too hot or too cold to
consider utility biking.

Amsterdam, Portland, Seattle, Davis CA, etc. all feature pretty mild
climates. Portland's winter is gloomy and drizzly, but much easier to
handle on a bike than much of the country. (Bismarck ND's state museum
had a sign "40 below keeps the riff-raff out.")

And even Portland sees far less bike use in winter than in nice weather.

This doesn't mean we can't achieve 10% bike mode share. All we have to
do is what Amsterdam did: Flatten all the significant hills. Get rid of
hot summers and freezing winters. Go back 100 years and install a
bicycle culture, where everyone ride bikes even without special
facilities. Then dissuade driving by not redesigning streets for
motorists, as America did. Make parking hard to find and expensive. Make
it harder to qualify for a driver's license. Put big taxes on car
purchases and gasoline. Provide lots of public transportation, paid for
by tax dollars.

Presto! Lots of biking! Any politician worth his salt should be able to
achieve all that within a couple years.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #65  
Old June 2nd 19, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On 6/2/2019 10:06 AM, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.


If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.


.... and figure out the direction of causality.

Say, how about if we see whether bike mode share increased before or
after the installation of most bike lanes? What if we see if building
even more bike lanes causes continued increase in bike mode share?

No... you won't do that, because you won't like the results in San
Francisco, in Pittsburgh, in Portland...

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #66  
Old June 2nd 19, 08:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On 6/2/2019 8:45 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.


I think that some people have the idea that days after the construction
of bicycle infrastructure is completed that suddenly bicycle use
skyrockets. When that doesn't happen they loudly proclaim that this
proves that bicycle infrastructure doesn't contribute much to increased
cycling levels and was a waste of money.

The old Chinese proverb of "The best time to construct a protected bike
lane was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" applies.

  #67  
Old June 2nd 19, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers aswell as cyclists, study finds"

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.

In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane


I'm not too familiar with Montreal. I have been to Ottawa a few times in
years gone by and remember bike lanes that ran on the road, then up onto
the sidewalks then back onto the roads. Interesting.

Cheers


Been to Ottawa but I don’t remember that. We do a ride from Montreal to
Gatineau so I’ve ridden in Ottawa but just a bit. Gatineau Park is a cool
place to ride a bike though.

Right on red is illegal in Montreal so that may help things. Or hinder
depending on your point of view.

--
duane
  #68  
Old June 2nd 19, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers aswell as cyclists, study finds"

sms wrote:
On 6/2/2019 8:45 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.


I think that some people have the idea that days after the construction
of bicycle infrastructure is completed that suddenly bicycle use
skyrockets. When that doesn't happen they loudly proclaim that this
proves that bicycle infrastructure doesn't contribute much to increased
cycling levels and was a waste of money.

The old Chinese proverb of "The best time to construct a protected bike
lane was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" applies.



I can’t say. I’ve been here for about 25 years and the number of cyclists
seems to be increasing along with the architecture. I don’t see which is
cause and which is effect.

Or if there’s a direct correlation. Except for the bike path that they
build between our neighbourhood and our local grammar school. The bike
racks at the school are now full when they were empty before.

--
duane
  #69  
Old June 2nd 19, 08:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:16:01 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/2/2019 8:45 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.


I think that some people have the idea that days after the construction
of bicycle infrastructure is completed that suddenly bicycle use
skyrockets. When that doesn't happen they loudly proclaim that this
proves that bicycle infrastructure doesn't contribute much to increased
cycling levels and was a waste of money.

The old Chinese proverb of "The best time to construct a protected bike
lane was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" applies.


So, what do you say when a bicycle lane, path or segregated facility is built and many years later it's still nearly empty of bicyclists?

Most of the so called bicycling infrastructure I've seen in Toronto, Canada and Waterloo Region, Ontario, Canada is wasted money. The only ones I see that get even a modicum of use, and then only in the late spring and summer, are the Rail-trails and then ONLY on the weekends.

Cheers
  #70  
Old June 2nd 19, 09:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:51:14 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.

In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane


I'm not too familiar with Montreal. I have been to Ottawa a few times in
years gone by and remember bike lanes that ran on the road, then up onto
the sidewalks then back onto the roads. Interesting.

Cheers


Been to Ottawa but I don’t remember that. We do a ride from Montreal to
Gatineau so I’ve ridden in Ottawa but just a bit. Gatineau Park is a cool
place to ride a bike though.

Right on red is illegal in Montreal so that may help things. Or hinder
depending on your point of view.

--
duane


It was many years ago and it was down near LeBreton Flats (where there used to be a campground)and Parliament vicinity iirc. It might have changed over the years. It might have been further into town too as I did have my bicycle.

Just looked at Google Maps and I don't recognize any of the roads except Booth and Eddy streets.

I used to cross the Chaudiere Bridge on Eddy street and ride into Hull and go to Cycle Bertrand. That was a neat store. I see there's still a Cycle Bertrand in hull on Eddy Street.

Cheers
 




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