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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
I submitted the following query to The Police National Legal Database
(PNLD) ---------------------------------------------- If a passenger in a car opens a door and knocks a cyclist off their bike - can the driver of the car be prosecuted for this action of the passenger. Who would be prosecuted - and with what offence? (The passenger is an adult with full mental faculties) --------------------------------------------------- They have replied as follows: Judith Regulation 105 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates an offence of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or endanger any person. This would lend that individual who opened the door being prosecuted at court. If it could be shown that the driver also initiated the opening of that door s/he too could be prosecuted for the same offence. The Police National Legal Database (PNLD) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening of the that door" As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
wrote: I submitted the following query to The Police National Legal Database (PNLD) ---------------------------------------------- If a passenger in a car opens a door and knocks a cyclist off their bike - can the driver of the car be prosecuted for this action of the passenger. Who would be prosecuted - and with what offence? (The passenger is an adult with full mental faculties) --------------------------------------------------- They have replied as follows: Judith Regulation 105 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates an offence of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or endanger any person. This would lend that individual who opened the door being prosecuted at court. If it could be shown that the driver also initiated the opening of that door s/he too could be prosecuted for the same offence. The Police National Legal Database (PNLD) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening of the that door" As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. About a year ago I was overtaken by a car at zigzags before a pelican crossing and then started to draw level with the vehicle when it stopped at the red lights. The passenger door opened and a young child started to get out. Would the young child be responsible for any collision, or the mother instructing the young child to disembark at zigzags? Fortunately I was sufficiently alert to the potential danger poised by an overtaking car on zigzags and stopped in time, but it could have been messy. |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote:
As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame Or to put it another way: the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible. I'm glad we've got judith here to share these blinding insights with us. How diminished my life would have been without her searing intellect on hand to explain that to me. Maybe I should take her out of the killfile. Maybe not. regards, Ian SMith -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
said in : As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is right. For the avoidance of doubt, the question was never over whether the passenger /may/ be prosecuted or held liable, a serving police officer had already made that point, the question is whether the driver /may/ be liable under "cause or permit". Of course, in judith's mind the fact that someone else /may/ be held liable is semantically equivalent to the driver /never under any circumstances/ being liable, but she is wrong about that - as she is about everything else, of course. So: judith's reply from the police neatly proves precisely the point she's being arguing against, namely that the driver /may be held liable/ and /may be prosecuted/. Cause or permit. Still, perhaps now judith has persuaded herself that she is "right" she will wander off singing "fixing a hole" under her breath and leave us alone. Very apt song, that, in judith's case: she may believe that where's she's wrong she's right, but she sure as hell doesn't belong here. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On 11 Aug 2008 12:32:50 GMT, Ian Smith wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote: As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame Or to put it another way: the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible. It's really good when a ****wit snips something out of context and tries to show someone up isn't it. It's even better when the someone reposts what they had said in context and shows that the person is indeed a ****wit. ================================================== ============ NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening of the that door" As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. ================================================== ============= Were you one of the ****wits who reckoned the driver was responsible for the passengers' actions? Don't like being put right? - it's very common with cyclists. (Here's another clue for you - you can tell a knob head when they change the followups and think no-one will notice. It's quite popular with school kids; anyway, don't worry - I've put it back to where it was so that the regulars can see what a daft sod you are) |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith said in : As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is right. I think you will find tha the point Judith was refuting was that the driver was responsible for the passengers actions. The reply she quote clearly shows that she was correct:: The driver is responsible for their own actions ie if they initiate opening the car door eg (i guess) by switching the central locking to permit the passenger to open the door, if the passenger opens the door with no intervetion by the driver to assist or allow than the passenger is responsible not the driver. It may well be that the car drivers insurance would cover the civil liability but in terms of the offence that ti passenger alone pk |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:38:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith said in : As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this could be shown. As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is right. For the avoidance of doubt, the question was never over whether the passenger /may/ be prosecuted or held liable, a serving police officer had already made that point, the question is whether the driver /may/ be liable under "cause or permit". Of course, in judith's mind the fact that someone else /may/ be held liable is semantically equivalent to the driver /never under any circumstances/ being liable, but she is wrong about that - as she is about everything else, of course. So: judith's reply from the police neatly proves precisely the point she's being arguing against, namely that the driver /may be held liable/ and /may be prosecuted/. Cause or permit. Still, perhaps now judith has persuaded herself that she is "right" she will wander off singing "fixing a hole" under her breath and leave us alone. Very apt song, that, in judith's case: she may believe that where's she's wrong she's right, but she sure as hell doesn't belong here. I think that conceding a bit on both sides would be in order here. Sniper suggested that the driver, when present, could always be found criminally negligent for the actions of any passenger, and the driver's insurance claimed against for any civil action. This is clearly not the case. However, it does seem that a driver *can* be held criminally negligent and have a claim for damages made against their insurer in certain circumstances. E.g. the sanario I gave earlier in this thread which Judith chose not to respond. |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
Ian Smith wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote: As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame Or to put it another way: the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible. That's a pretty astute way to put it - and one that is unarguable. Yet another way to put it is that the driver is not and cannot be accountable for the actions of any other person (with the possible exception of a child under his control at the time). |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:11:46 +0100, "PK" wrote:
but in terms of the offence that ti passenger alone Again I doubt this is the case. If a driver pulls to a stop at the end of a journey with a car load of passengers I expect that the driver has a responsibility to check that it is safe for his passengers to open their doors, and if it is not safe to warn his passengers not to open their doors. However, if a driver could not reasonably forsee a car door opening event, and a passenger opens their door unexpectedly into a cyclist or pedestrian, I would be surprised if the driver could be held responsible. It is hard to envisage an unexpected car door opening event, so in most cases I expect a driver could be held responsible for most cases of injury to third parties. |
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Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:30:22 +0100, JNugent wrote:
Ian Smith wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote: As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame Or to put it another way: the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible. That's a pretty astute way to put it - and one that is unarguable. Yet another way to put it is that the driver is not and cannot be accountable for the actions of any other person (with the possible exception of a child under his control at the time). I am not sure that that is the correct way to look at it. Does a driver have a responsibility to warn a passenger of a potential hazard? If a driver does not warn a passenger of a potential hazard and an incident occurs, could the driver be found negligent? However, in some cases the driver may not be found responsible. Consider Guy and Judith in a car together with Guy driving and Judith in the passenger seat. They are bickering about helmets. Guy stops at red lights, and in a huff Judith opens her car door to jump out in a huff. In doing so she hits a cyclist in the cycle lane on her left. He falls off his bike, hitting his head on the kerb. Fortunately he is wearing a helmet which adequately protects against minor cuts and abrasions, unfortunately he suffers a rare rotational head injury breaking his neck and causing permanemt paralysis below the neck. The cyclist is a potential Man U player and a claim is made for £4,000,000. Against whom should the claim be made? |
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