A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » Regional Cycling » UK
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 11th 08, 09:23 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
judith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,961
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

I submitted the following query to The Police National Legal Database
(PNLD)

----------------------------------------------
If a passenger in a car opens a door and knocks a cyclist off their
bike -
can the driver of the car be prosecuted for this action of the
passenger.
Who would be prosecuted - and with what offence?

(The passenger is an adult with full mental faculties)

---------------------------------------------------
They have replied as follows:

Judith

Regulation 105 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations
1986 creates an offence of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or
endanger any person. This would lend that individual who opened the
door being prosecuted at court. If it could be shown that the driver
also initiated the opening of that door s/he too could be prosecuted
for the same offence.

The Police National Legal Database (PNLD)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening
of the that door"

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.




Ads
  #2  
Old August 11th 08, 12:16 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
wrote:

I submitted the following query to The Police National Legal Database
(PNLD)

----------------------------------------------
If a passenger in a car opens a door and knocks a cyclist off their
bike -
can the driver of the car be prosecuted for this action of the
passenger.
Who would be prosecuted - and with what offence?

(The passenger is an adult with full mental faculties)

---------------------------------------------------
They have replied as follows:

Judith

Regulation 105 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations
1986 creates an offence of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or
endanger any person. This would lend that individual who opened the
door being prosecuted at court. If it could be shown that the driver
also initiated the opening of that door s/he too could be prosecuted
for the same offence.

The Police National Legal Database (PNLD)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening
of the that door"

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.


About a year ago I was overtaken by a car at zigzags before a pelican
crossing and then started to draw level with the vehicle when it
stopped at the red lights. The passenger door opened and a young
child started to get out.

Would the young child be responsible for any collision, or the mother
instructing the young child to disembark at zigzags?

Fortunately I was sufficiently alert to the potential danger poised by
an overtaking car on zigzags and stopped in time, but it could have
been messy.
  #3  
Old August 11th 08, 01:32 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Ian Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,622
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote:

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame


Or to put it another way:
the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible.

I'm glad we've got judith here to share these blinding insights with
us. How diminished my life would have been without her searing
intellect on hand to explain that to me. Maybe I should take her out
of the killfile.

Maybe not.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
  #4  
Old August 11th 08, 02:38 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Just zis Guy, you know?
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,612
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
said in :

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.


As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that
the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is
right. For the avoidance of doubt, the question was never over
whether the passenger /may/ be prosecuted or held liable, a serving
police officer had already made that point, the question is whether
the driver /may/ be liable under "cause or permit". Of course, in
judith's mind the fact that someone else /may/ be held liable is
semantically equivalent to the driver /never under any
circumstances/ being liable, but she is wrong about that - as she is
about everything else, of course.

So: judith's reply from the police neatly proves precisely the point
she's being arguing against, namely that the driver /may be held
liable/ and /may be prosecuted/. Cause or permit.

Still, perhaps now judith has persuaded herself that she is "right"
she will wander off singing "fixing a hole" under her breath and
leave us alone. Very apt song, that, in judith's case: she may
believe that where's she's wrong she's right, but she sure as hell
doesn't belong here.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
  #5  
Old August 11th 08, 02:42 PM posted to uk.legal,uk.rec.cycling
judith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,961
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On 11 Aug 2008 12:32:50 GMT, Ian Smith wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote:

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame


Or to put it another way:
the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible.



It's really good when a ****wit snips something out of context and
tries to show someone up isn't it.

It's even better when the someone reposts what they had said in
context and shows that the person is indeed a ****wit.


================================================== ============
NB If it could be "shown" that the driver "also initiated the opening
of the that door"

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.
================================================== =============


Were you one of the ****wits who reckoned the driver was responsible
for the passengers' actions?

Don't like being put right? - it's very common with cyclists.

(Here's another clue for you - you can tell a knob head when they
change the followups and think no-one will notice. It's quite popular
with school kids; anyway, don't worry - I've put it back to where it
was so that the regulars can see what a daft sod you are)
  #6  
Old August 11th 08, 03:11 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
PK[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer


"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
said in :

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.


As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that
the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is
right.


I think you will find tha the point Judith was refuting was that the driver
was responsible for the passengers actions.

The reply she quote clearly shows that she was correct::
The driver is responsible for their own actions ie if they initiate opening
the car door eg (i guess) by switching the central locking to permit the
passenger to open the door, if the passenger opens the door with no
intervetion by the driver to assist or allow than the passenger is
responsible not the driver. It may well be that the car drivers insurance
would cover the civil liability but in terms of the offence that ti
passenger alone

pk

  #7  
Old August 11th 08, 03:22 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:38:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:23:20 +0100, judith
said in :

As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame and this
could be shown.


As expected, judith gets a reply which says she is wrong (i.e. that
the driver /may/ be held responsible), and uses it to pretend she is
right. For the avoidance of doubt, the question was never over
whether the passenger /may/ be prosecuted or held liable, a serving
police officer had already made that point, the question is whether
the driver /may/ be liable under "cause or permit". Of course, in
judith's mind the fact that someone else /may/ be held liable is
semantically equivalent to the driver /never under any
circumstances/ being liable, but she is wrong about that - as she is
about everything else, of course.

So: judith's reply from the police neatly proves precisely the point
she's being arguing against, namely that the driver /may be held
liable/ and /may be prosecuted/. Cause or permit.

Still, perhaps now judith has persuaded herself that she is "right"
she will wander off singing "fixing a hole" under her breath and
leave us alone. Very apt song, that, in judith's case: she may
believe that where's she's wrong she's right, but she sure as hell
doesn't belong here.


I think that conceding a bit on both sides would be in order here.

Sniper suggested that the driver, when present, could always be found
criminally negligent for the actions of any passenger, and the
driver's insurance claimed against for any civil action.

This is clearly not the case.

However, it does seem that a driver *can* be held criminally negligent
and have a claim for damages made against their insurer in certain
circumstances. E.g. the sanario I gave earlier in this thread which
Judith chose not to respond.
  #8  
Old August 11th 08, 03:30 PM posted to anywhere.else,??,uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
JNugent[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

Ian Smith wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote:


As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame


Or to put it another way:
the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible.


That's a pretty astute way to put it - and one that is unarguable.

Yet another way to put it is that the driver is not and cannot be
accountable for the actions of any other person (with the possible
exception of a child under his control at the time).
  #9  
Old August 11th 08, 03:36 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:11:46 +0100, "PK" wrote:

but in terms of the offence that ti
passenger alone


Again I doubt this is the case.

If a driver pulls to a stop at the end of a journey with a car load of
passengers I expect that the driver has a responsibility to check that
it is safe for his passengers to open their doors, and if it is not
safe to warn his passengers not to open their doors.

However, if a driver could not reasonably forsee a car door opening
event, and a passenger opens their door unexpectedly into a cyclist or
pedestrian, I would be surprised if the driver could be held
responsible.

It is hard to envisage an unexpected car door opening event, so in
most cases I expect a driver could be held responsible for most cases
of injury to third parties.
  #10  
Old August 11th 08, 03:54 PM posted to anywhere.else,??,uk.rec.cycling,uk.legal
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default Car Passenger Knocks of Cyclist - An Answer

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:30:22 +0100, JNugent wrote:

Ian Smith wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, judith wrote:


As expected no mention of the driver being held responsible for the
action of the passenger unless the driver was also to blame


Or to put it another way:
the driver is not responsible unless the driver is responsible.


That's a pretty astute way to put it - and one that is unarguable.

Yet another way to put it is that the driver is not and cannot be
accountable for the actions of any other person (with the possible
exception of a child under his control at the time).


I am not sure that that is the correct way to look at it.

Does a driver have a responsibility to warn a passenger of a potential
hazard?

If a driver does not warn a passenger of a potential hazard and an
incident occurs, could the driver be found negligent?

However, in some cases the driver may not be found responsible.

Consider Guy and Judith in a car together with Guy driving and Judith
in the passenger seat. They are bickering about helmets. Guy stops
at red lights, and in a huff Judith opens her car door to jump out in
a huff. In doing so she hits a cyclist in the cycle lane on her left.
He falls off his bike, hitting his head on the kerb. Fortunately he
is wearing a helmet which adequately protects against minor cuts and
abrasions, unfortunately he suffers a rare rotational head injury
breaking his neck and causing permanemt paralysis below the neck.

The cyclist is a potential Man U player and a claim is made for
£4,000,000.

Against whom should the claim be made?
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Highway Code anti-cyclist wording FOI answer David Hansen UK 18 March 26th 08 12:04 PM
Hit by a car passenger [email protected] UK 36 November 5th 07 10:45 PM
Cyclist hit and runs - what is the answer? Matt B UK 194 July 17th 06 10:14 AM
Looking for passenger for MOAB (from SF) mscalisi Unicycling 4 February 17th 04 07:48 PM
Strange 'knocks' from pedals/crank area John Latter UK 5 February 6th 04 09:30 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.