BB standard

On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 9:16:49 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/1/2019 5:00 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 12:05:18 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/30/2019 10:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/30/2019 12:18 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:04:29 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Standards are great! We ought to have more of them!

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/2020-...ockett-t47-bb/

If words have meaning, what is 'standard' any more?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Back to bicycles and bottom bracket standards.

Are the old Suntour Cyclone bottom brackets and the old
Shimano bottom brackets the same standard? Can a Shimano
cup and cone bottom bracket be used with a Suntour Cyclone
crank? Can a Shimano cartridge bottom bracket be used with
a Suntour Cyclone bottom bracket?

Cheers

Yes, insofar as frame/cup threads match and spindle
dimensions are the same or close.
(IIRC Cyclone and New600 are same length but not certain)
They are both the same taper section and both are symmetric.

No, Shimano UN type units are a different taper section.
ref:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG


Whoopsie. Meatware error on my part.

New 600 are the revisionist JIS section.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Okay. So a Suntour Cyclone crank won't fit properly onto a Shimano UN sealed cartridge bottom bracket?

Would a Suntour Cyclone crankset fit properly onto a circa 2001 Campagnolo Veloce sealed cartridge bottom bracket?

Thanks again and cheers


I don't know but I suspect the later spindle may be too
short. Designers moved to curved cranks= shorter spindles
(while keeping the same chainline) during that period.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Thanks Andrew. I guess I'll just have to try it and see.

Cheers

On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never another
BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea. The
problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized for me
with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if it has
been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in formats, there
is no rigid connection between the bearing and spindle, and it seems
to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the cups
in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and a set of
bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

--
JS

On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never another
BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea. The
problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized for me
with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if it has
been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in formats, there
is no rigid connection between the bearing and spindle, and it seems
to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the cups
in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and a set of
bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all you do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute operation. Faster than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are pretty fast too.

I've never had a BB bearing cartridge last 40,000km -- or even 1/4" loose ball BBs.


-- Jay Beattie

On 2/7/19 11:05 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never
another BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad
infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea.
The problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized
for me with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if
it has been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in
formats, there is no rigid connection between the bearing and
spindle, and it seems to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing
special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the
cups in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and
a set of bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M


I don't have either of those tools. I managed without.

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all you
do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute operation. Faster
than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are pretty fast too.

How nice. Does that mean they're better, or just convenient because the
bearings don't last as long?


I've never had a BB bearing cartridge last 40,000km -- or even 1/4"
loose ball BBs.


At the time I replaced the original bearings on my UT cranks, there was
only a mere fraction of perceivable play in the bearings.

--
JS

On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 8:28:51 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 2/7/19 11:05 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never
another BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad
infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea.
The problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized
for me with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if
it has been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in
formats, there is no rigid connection between the bearing and
spindle, and it seems to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing
special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the
cups in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and
a set of bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M


I don't have either of those tools. I managed without.

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all you
do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute operation. Faster
than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are pretty fast too.

How nice. Does that mean they're better, or just convenient because the
bearings don't last as long?

More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks like a standard cartridge bearing. I don't know why it would fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe they're special in some way.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/7/19 2:09 pm, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 8:28:51 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 2/7/19 11:05 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle
of development as far as I am concerned. If there was
never another BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT
design ad infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the
tooling needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a
nice idea. The problem with fretting and spindle wear has
never materialized for me with Ultegra or even 105 cranks.
I'd be curious to know if it has been a real problem. With
BB 30 and similar press-in formats, there is no rigid
connection between the bearing and spindle, and it seems to
work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing
special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw
the cups in or out of the frame. The cups last for many
bearings, and a set of bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M


I don't have either of those tools. I managed without.

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all
you do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute
operation. Faster than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are
pretty fast too.

How nice. Does that mean they're better, or just convenient
because the bearings don't last as long?

More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks
like a standard cartridge bearing. I don't know why it would fare
any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe
they're special in some way.


I should note that I recently bought a "used once" UT crank set, and
replaced the slightly beaten up cranks on my good bike. IIRC, I bought
my original UT crank set in 2008. I used them until late 2018. That's
10 years of use and one new bearing set some time in 2012 I guess. The
bearings I installed are still fine. No noticeable play or noise. I
ride over 10,000km annually. The old cranks will go on my backup bike
when I get around to it.


That is convenience in my books.

--
JS

On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 8:28:51 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 2/7/19 11:05 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never
another BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad
infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea.
The problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized
for me with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if
it has been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in
formats, there is no rigid connection between the bearing and
spindle, and it seems to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing
special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the
cups in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and
a set of bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M


I don't have either of those tools. I managed without.

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all you
do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute operation. Faster
than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are pretty fast too.

How nice. Does that mean they're better, or just convenient because the
bearings don't last as long?

More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks like a standard cartridge bearing. I don't know why it would fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe they're special in some way.

-- Jay Beattie.


Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can
have dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:16:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 8:28:51 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 2/7/19 11:05 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:59:57 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/6/19 12:03 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:54:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Campagnolo UltraTorque BB & crank design is *the* pinnacle of
development as far as I am concerned. If there was never
another BB assy, I would be happy to use the UT design ad
infinitum.

A little complex from my standpoint, particular with the tooling
needed to replace bearings, but the threaded cup is a nice idea.
The problem with fretting and spindle wear has never materialized
for me with Ultegra or even 105 cranks. I'd be curious to know if
it has been a real problem. With BB 30 and similar press-in
formats, there is no rigid connection between the bearing and
spindle, and it seems to work.


To replace the bearings, I used tools in my tool box. Nothing
special.

There is only one special tool required, and that is to screw the
cups in or out of the frame. The cups last for many bearings, and
a set of bearings lasted me over 40,000km.

Don't you have to use a bearing puller and setting tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ7VlQkCT9M


I don't have either of those tools. I managed without.

What I was getting at is that with the Shimano outboard BBs, all you
do is spin in new cups/bearings. It's a five minute operation. Faster
than squeezing in BB30 bearings, which are pretty fast too.

How nice. Does that mean they're better, or just convenient because the
bearings don't last as long?

More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks like a standard cartridge bearing. I don't know why it would fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe they're special in some way.

-- Jay Beattie.


Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can
have dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news.

Absolutely, but from what I can tell, both the Campy and Shimano cranks use a 6805N-2RS, probably with ABEC 5/7 steel balls in the mid-range, so I was wondering what distinguished the Campy OE bearings. Are they some sort of super-steel? I've gotten a pretty long life out of some bearings, but nowhere near 25,000 miles out of a BB, assuming the frame and crank lasted that long.

Riding in rain half the year is a BB killer, although the two or three year old BB30 bearings in my commuter were doing fine until I replaced them, thinking they were causing a creak/snap, which they weren't. Now they are spares. I use a Wheels MFG Shimano adapter which gives an added measure of bearing shielding. Standard 6806 mid-fi steel Enduro bearings.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/7/19 12:04 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:16:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:


More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks
like a standard cartridge bearing. I don't know why it would
fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but
maybe they're special in some way.

-- Jay Beattie.


Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can have
dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news.

Absolutely, but from what I can tell, both the Campy and Shimano
cranks use a 6805N-2RS, probably with ABEC 5/7 steel balls in the
mid-range, so I was wondering what distinguished the Campy OE
bearings. Are they some sort of super-steel? I've gotten a pretty
long life out of some bearings, but nowhere near 25,000 miles out of
a BB, assuming the frame and crank lasted that long.

Perhaps also the seal in the Campag cup helps stop rusty water from
getting to the bearing from the inside?

I don't do much wet weather riding, but I read on a forum just now "In
my experience, Campag's bearings are amongst the best; mine lasted well
over 10,000km of all-weather commuting."

My frame is also fairly well sealed from moisture, so it appears. I
don't find water dripping from the BB drain hole after a wet ride, and I
haven't found rusty residue in the BB shell at times when I remove the
cranks. The bearing grease always looks pretty clean too.

--
JS

On 3/7/19 2:42 pm, James wrote:
On 3/7/19 12:04 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:16:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:


More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks
like a standard cartridge bearing.Â* I don't know why it would
fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but
maybe they're special in some way.

-- Jay Beattie.


Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can have
dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news.

Absolutely, but from what I can tell, both the Campy and Shimano
cranks use a 6805N-2RS, probably with ABEC 5/7 steel balls in the
mid-range, so I was wondering what distinguished the Campy OE
bearings. Are they some sort of super-steel? I've gotten a pretty
long life out of some bearings, but nowhere near 25,000 miles out of
a BB, assuming the frame and crank lasted that long.

Perhaps also the seal in the Campag cup helps stop rusty water from
getting to the bearing from the inside?

I don't do much wet weather riding, but I read on a forum just now "In
my experience, Campag's bearings are amongst the best; mine lasted well
over 10,000km of all-weather commuting."

My frame is also fairly well sealed from moisture, so it appears.Â* I
don't find water dripping from the BB drain hole after a wet ride, and I
haven't found rusty residue in the BB shell at times when I remove the
cranks.Â* The bearing grease always looks pretty clean too.


I should mention that before I got my first UT cranks, I had used both
Shimano and Campag "sealed" cartridge BB assemblies, and they would last
maybe one season if I was lucky. Mostly they would start making noises
well before that.

I have mates with Shimano cranks & BB with outboard bearings, who suffer
clunks and creaks from the BB, and the occasional left crank that drops
off because the 2 little pinch bolts weren't tight enough. Obviously
the mechanic's fault, or the engineering. I figure a single big bolt
that holds the axle halves together, and a wire clip to locate one
bearing in the housing is simple and robust enough for most amateur
mechanics to get right.

--
JS