BB standard

On 6/27/2019 7:15 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Given that a good friends family had about a 1939 Chevrolet and they
seemed to go through about one clutch a year I believe that clutch
wear is largely a matter of the driver's technique and not a matter of
some sort inherent weakness.

It's a wear item. Unlike a 1937 or 1939 Chevrolet, clutch replacement is
complex and expensive on newer cars. I knew someone with a Mini Cooper
with a manual transmission. She cringed when her son was learning to
drive a stick because she knew that a replacement clutch would be close
to $2000 (in California). The parts aren't that expensive but it's a lot
of labor cost because of the bumper removal and the sub-frame removal.

On 6/28/2019 5:39 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:

snip

In smaller vehicles, with hand operated parking brakes, it’s not a big
deal.

Subaru has their "Hill Holder Clutch." Someone said that VW also offered it.

Driving a stick on the hills in San Francisco was not that fun.

On 6/28/2019 4:03 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 21:32:19 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/27/2019 9:15 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:39 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/27/2019 9:59 AM, wrote:

snip

But they are all available with an AT but people,
- feel manly to stick shift,
- find AT too expensive,
- don't know what they are missing and think AT are still slow and sluggish.

If I simulate my manual shift from my driveway to the main road about 400 m away it would be:
r-1-2-3-2-Corner-3-4-2-speedbump-2-3-4-2-speedbump-3-4-2-corner to main road 15 manual shift in only 400 meter. Crazy. Automatic transmission: choose sport setting or leaving the default comfort setting R-D done!

Not disagreeing that an AT is a better choice. And for vehicles with a
good AT it'll end up costing less because it'll last longer than a
clutch replacement on an MT. But some vehicles have had problematic ATs
i.e. Hondas from 1998 to 2004.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

I keep reading this about clutch replacement but I don't remember my
folks ever having to change a clutch on any of their cars and my first
car was a 1937 Chevrolet that I inherited when my folks bought a new
car and it lasted me for two years before it died and I'm pretty sure
that it still had the original clutch in it. Or, at least I know that
my folks never changed the clutch and I certainly didn't. And my
Grandfather had a Model A pickup that he drove for something like 20
years without a clutch change.

Given that a good friends family had about a 1939 Chevrolet and they
seemed to go through about one clutch a year I believe that clutch
wear is largely a matter of the driver's technique and not a matter of
some sort inherent weakness.
--
cheers,

John B.


"largely a matter of the driver's technique"
+1

The only time that I ever noticed having to slip the clutch very much
was starting out on a hill where you needed to keep the car from
rolling backward before you could get going. Brake, Clutch and
throttle were hard to manage with only two feet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJleJbn9G6Y :-)

This Mazda has a system that maintains the brake when stopped on a hill
until the moment the car is moving. Kind of handy!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 8:21:52 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 27.06.2019 um 15:13 schrieb sms:
I was just over in Germany two weeks ago (Berlin) and I made a point of
looking for AT cars, peering in the windows. There were a few luxury
cars with automatics, but the vast majority of vehicles (VW, Skoda,
Toyota, Opel, Ford, etc.) were manual.

Europeans traditionally have an idea of "active driving" which means to
include deciding when to change gears.
The switch to AT is (more or less) just happening now: Many people
realize that the "stop-and-go assistants" for the motorways are a lot
more useful in combination with AT, so it appears that new cars the size
of VW Golf or larger tend to have a higher AT rate since 2 or 3 years.

Leaving aside the manhood-enhancing vapourware of claimed greater skill and thus efficiency of derailleur-changing v. automatic gear-changing even in bicycles, the persistence of European cars with manual gearboxes even so late in the game is at least in part a throwback to days when European cars were taxed by size, so that those euphemistic "10hp" or "14PS" cars were in fact not actual horsepower ratings but revenue commissioners' assumptions about the output of variously-sized engines. Today the politician's purse-lipped delight in denying the people's smallest pleasure is aided and abetted by the net-curtain twitching clowns of the environmental religion, with much the same result. The reason for so many postwar engines stopping at 2.7 or in some places 2.8 litres, real displacement now, was that above that engine size, the taxes escalated so ferociously as to kill sales altogether; an equivalent today is the income tax authorities taxing company cars (an automotive segment of great importance to manufacturers) over 1.6 or 1.8L as income in kind. Since the ability to make an automatic gearbox work acceptably is related to torque, which in turn, all other things being equal, is at any developmental stage of the combustion engine related to its size, until the coming of stable (meaning suited to small engines throughout their speed range) forced induction, small engines to be palatable were forced to have manual boxes. In America, where engine size was not penalised in the tax system, and there was therefore plenty of torque available, even the wasteful slushmatic boxes of the 22ft "full size" behemoths of the 1960s were more than adequate. By 1979, when I bought a Volvo estate to ferry my child to school, the 2.1L engine it came with was quite adequate to the Borg-Warner 35 autobox that I ordered as an option. (Note though that Volvo, despite its tank-like appearance, was a light car for its size, about 2800 pounds; when we started crossing France in it, I soon subbed a lightly breathed-on Chevy 5.7L V8 with its standard four-speed auto box for stress-free driving.)

As for the advantages of manual gearboxes in small English sports cars like the MG B, their resident enthusiast have promised me free vintage components for my bike forever to prevent me telling the truth...

Andre Jute
....stumm

On 6/28/2019 10:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/28/2019 8:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2019 3:18 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 1:00:32 AM UTC-4, John B.
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 20:34:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/27/2019 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 1:47:46 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2019 5:26 PM, wrote:
  I see no reason today for manual shifting
except for sentimental reasons and that it is
cheaper (2000 -3000 euro's). Modern automatic
transmission outperform manual shifting in every
way, at least the one I'm driving now.

Here's my situation: We drive a Mazda 3. We have a
tiny pop-up camping
trailer. It weighs only 750 pounds empty.

The Mazda's stated towing capacity is zero, although
I've been told that
if I had bought the exact same vehicle in Europe,
it's towing capacity
would be listed as 500 kg, which is plenty.

I put a trailer hitch on this car as soon as I got
it, and we've towed
the trailer as far as Nova Scotia. I knew I was
violating the warranty,
but I judged it worth the risk. If the car had an
automatic
transmission, I don't know if I'd make that same
judgement.

Why?  Towing trailers in hilly terrain is a clutch
killer, and typically cars with ATs have higher
towing capacity than the same model with a MT because
of the AT torque converter. I don't see why having
a MT would make you feel more positive about towing
-- particularly on a car that probably has a pretty
low-torque first gear since it is just a family sedan
and not a truck.

I admit, I haven't looked into this deeply. But I know
that transmission
coolers are sold as accessories for automatic
transmissions used in
towing:
https://www.aamcocolorado.com/what-y...ssion-coolers/

 That gives me pause, especially with the warranty
issue.

Perhaps those coolers aren't quite as important in
these days of locking
torque converters, but my understanding is that they
lock up only at
cruising speed; so if I were towing slowly up a
mountain, I'd think
there would be a potential for transmission
overheating. And we have
towed this trailer over the Appalachians and Rockies
many times.

The Mazda is the fourth little car with which we've
towed this same
trailer, all with manual transmissions. (I've never
owned an automatic.)
None had any transmission problem, and only the last
one, the Pontiac
Vibe, ever had a clutch problem, a very slight
occasional slip once it
was 10+ years old. But since slipping clutches were a
known issue with
old Vibes, it probably had little or nothing to do
with the towing.

Regarding torque: There's always been enough to climb
mountains, etc.
even when the car towing this trailer was a 1985 Honda
Civic. We just
went up fairly slowly in a low gear. I the manual
transmission didn't
seem to care. I suspect an automatic trans might.

All auto transmissions used to have a cooler as
initially installed
but I just went out and had a look at my wife's new
Honda and while
the engine compartment is pretty crowded I certainly
can't see a
transmission cooler so I assume that they are no longer
necessary.
Looking at the parts list there appears to be a
"transmission warmer"
though.
--
cheers,

John B.

Browning had a so called automatic transmission for
bicycles. I wonder how long it will be now that
electronics are so small before a genuine automatic
transmission will be available for bicycles? After all,
we do have electronic shifting for bicycles that seems
to have all the bugs worked out of it.

Cheers

Apparently someone has built one. See:
http://evworld.com/urban.cfm?newsid=52
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2010/nuvinc...cvt-test-ride/
--
cheers,

John B.


Nuvinci are CVT=infinite step not an actual auto.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVINCI.JPG

IIRC, the NuVinci is pretty inefficient. Lots more energy
lost inside the box than with typical gears.


Yes, that's true.
But 26x4 format in mud and vegetation is one application
where riders like them a lot. No derailleur sticking out,
chain fouls are virtually unknown.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 6:22:45 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Browning had a so called automatic transmission for bicycles. I wonder how long it will be now that electronics are so small before a genuine automatic transmission will be available for bicycles? After all, we do have electronic shifting for bicycles that seems to have all the bugs worked out of it.

Cheers

I've had a fully automatic 8-speed bike from the European division of Trek, with electronically controlled adaptive suspension as well, for around 15 years. You can see it at
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html

Andre Jute
Happy to help

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 3:58:16 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems to me that automatic bicycle transmissions might possibly work for
leisurely riders who avoid any physical challenges - that is, the kind
that ride only on bike paths or around their neighborhoods, and never
with any significant loads. I can't imagine they'd do well with people
who sometimes want to cruise slowly, sometimes want to stand to charge a
hill, sometimes want to spin at high cadence, sometimes carry a heavy
load, etc.

Every single "fact" or opinion in this missive from the ever-opinionated Frank Krygowski is either ignorant of the readily available facts or uninformed by actual experience.

Seems to me that automatic bicycle transmissions might possibly work for
leisurely riders who avoid any physical challenges -

Actually, the bike on which I have 8-speed Shimano electronic full-auto change, plus other desirable facilities, was designed and sold as a Dutch "vakansiefiets", that is, a holiday bike, for long distance riding and seeking out "physical challenges". You really are a supercilious nincompoop, Franki-boy.

that is, the kind
that ride only on bike paths or around their neighborhoods, and never
with any significant loads.

Try going on holiday without "significant loads", you moron.

I can't imagine they'd do well with people
who sometimes want to cruise slowly, sometimes want to stand to charge a
hill, sometimes want to spin at high cadence, sometimes carry a heavy
load, etc.

Try going on holiday without "carrying a heavy load" or without "charging a hill". You're the paradigm of totally ignorant, uninformed, worthless opinion, Franki-boy.

Here's mo

But even for leisurely riders - why?

Because we're not all groundlessly opinionated luddites?

With a hub gear or an index
shifting 1x system, if you want it easier, you click once one way. If
you want it harder, you click the other way. What could be easier? Why
complicate?

But, Franki-boy, we're not all going "Look, Ma, I'm a bicycle spokesman!" every minute we're on the bike. People who can afford a large Mercedes or a Bentley, and know why they choose it, and then never think of it again, because it does what it is supposed to do without fuss, may expect their bicycles to operate the same way, without conscious thought from them. They have other things to occupy their minds than shifting gears. That surely shouldn't be too hard to understand for even a depressing clown like you, who considers every day wasted if you didn't drain the joy of living from at least twenty people.

- Frank Krygowski

What a useless jerk.

Unsigned out of contempt for a thoughtless fool.

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:29:02 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/27/2019 9:31 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:01:34 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/27/2019 3:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 1:47:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2019 5:26 PM, wrote:
I see no reason today for manual shifting except for sentimental reasons and that it is cheaper (2000 -3000 euro's). Modern automatic transmission outperform manual shifting in every way, at least the one I'm driving now.

Here's my situation: We drive a Mazda 3. We have a tiny pop-up camping
trailer. It weighs only 750 pounds empty.

The Mazda's stated towing capacity is zero, although I've been told that
if I had bought the exact same vehicle in Europe, it's towing capacity
would be listed as 500 kg, which is plenty.

I put a trailer hitch on this car as soon as I got it, and we've towed
the trailer as far as Nova Scotia. I knew I was violating the warranty,
but I judged it worth the risk. If the car had an automatic
transmission, I don't know if I'd make that same judgement.

Why? Towing trailers in hilly terrain is a clutch killer, and typically cars with ATs have higher towing capacity than the same model with a MT because of the AT torque converter. I don't see why having a MT would make you feel more positive about towing -- particularly on a car that probably has a pretty low-torque first gear since it is just a family sedan and not a truck.

True. And one of the reasons there are no manual transmission trucks
sold in the U.S. anymore. The only reason for a manual is off-road
driving in low gear. You can still buy a Jeep Wrangler with a manual, in
fact not sure if they even offer an automatic.

"no manual transmission trucks sold in the U.S. anymore"
See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZKajOTa4Gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6GpCqj1REo
--
cheers,

John B.


First link, second comment:
"I wish the engine brake actually did something when I’m
loaded. It does absolutely nothing. I really dislike this
transmission"

Are you sure that you listened to the first reference as he certainly
demonstrates the automatic feature of the transmission automatically
shifting down two gears and the "Jake" brake operating and says that
it is a great feature in traffic.

Engine braking, if it refers to a Jacobs ( or Jake ) Brake is a
system that uses engine compression to slow the vehicle and is a
totally separate system from the wheel brakes.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:34:59 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/28/2019 3:18 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 1:00:32 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 20:34:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/27/2019 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 1:47:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2019 5:26 PM, wrote:
I see no reason today for manual shifting except for sentimental reasons and that it is cheaper (2000 -3000 euro's). Modern automatic transmission outperform manual shifting in every way, at least the one I'm driving now.

Here's my situation: We drive a Mazda 3. We have a tiny pop-up camping
trailer. It weighs only 750 pounds empty.

The Mazda's stated towing capacity is zero, although I've been told that
if I had bought the exact same vehicle in Europe, it's towing capacity
would be listed as 500 kg, which is plenty.

I put a trailer hitch on this car as soon as I got it, and we've towed
the trailer as far as Nova Scotia. I knew I was violating the warranty,
but I judged it worth the risk. If the car had an automatic
transmission, I don't know if I'd make that same judgement.

Why? Towing trailers in hilly terrain is a clutch killer, and typically cars with ATs have higher towing capacity than the same model with a MT because of the AT torque converter. I don't see why having a MT would make you feel more positive about towing -- particularly on a car that probably has a pretty low-torque first gear since it is just a family sedan and not a truck.

I admit, I haven't looked into this deeply. But I know that transmission
coolers are sold as accessories for automatic transmissions used in
towing:
https://www.aamcocolorado.com/what-y...ssion-coolers/
That gives me pause, especially with the warranty issue.

Perhaps those coolers aren't quite as important in these days of locking
torque converters, but my understanding is that they lock up only at
cruising speed; so if I were towing slowly up a mountain, I'd think
there would be a potential for transmission overheating. And we have
towed this trailer over the Appalachians and Rockies many times.

The Mazda is the fourth little car with which we've towed this same
trailer, all with manual transmissions. (I've never owned an automatic.)
None had any transmission problem, and only the last one, the Pontiac
Vibe, ever had a clutch problem, a very slight occasional slip once it
was 10+ years old. But since slipping clutches were a known issue with
old Vibes, it probably had little or nothing to do with the towing.

Regarding torque: There's always been enough to climb mountains, etc.
even when the car towing this trailer was a 1985 Honda Civic. We just
went up fairly slowly in a low gear. I the manual transmission didn't
seem to care. I suspect an automatic trans might.

All auto transmissions used to have a cooler as initially installed
but I just went out and had a look at my wife's new Honda and while
the engine compartment is pretty crowded I certainly can't see a
transmission cooler so I assume that they are no longer necessary.
Looking at the parts list there appears to be a "transmission warmer"
though.
--
cheers,

John B.

Browning had a so called automatic transmission for bicycles. I wonder how long it will be now that electronics are so small before a genuine automatic transmission will be available for bicycles? After all, we do have electronic shifting for bicycles that seems to have all the bugs worked out of it.

Cheers

Apparently someone has built one. See:
http://evworld.com/urban.cfm?newsid=52
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2010/nuvinc...cvt-test-ride/
--
cheers,

John B.


Nuvinci are CVT=infinite step not an actual auto.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVINCI.JPG

True, but as the first site says they combined the CVT with a an
automatic speed sensor and some type of electrical shifter, powered,
apparently by a front hub generator , which turns it into what is
effectively an "automatic transmission".
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:07:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/28/2019 8:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2019 3:18 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 1:00:32 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 20:34:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/27/2019 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 1:47:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 6/26/2019 5:26 PM, wrote:
** I see no reason today for manual shifting except for
sentimental reasons and that it is cheaper (2000 -3000 euro's).
Modern automatic transmission outperform manual shifting in
every way, at least the one I'm driving now.

Here's my situation: We drive a Mazda 3. We have a tiny pop-up
camping
trailer. It weighs only 750 pounds empty.

The Mazda's stated towing capacity is zero, although I've been
told that
if I had bought the exact same vehicle in Europe, it's towing
capacity
would be listed as 500 kg, which is plenty.

I put a trailer hitch on this car as soon as I got it, and we've
towed
the trailer as far as Nova Scotia. I knew I was violating the
warranty,
but I judged it worth the risk. If the car had an automatic
transmission, I don't know if I'd make that same judgement.

Why?** Towing trailers in hilly terrain is a clutch killer, and
typically cars with ATs have higher towing capacity than the same
model with a MT because of the AT torque converter.* I don't see
why having a MT would make you feel more positive about towing --
particularly on a car that probably has a pretty low-torque first
gear since it is just a family sedan and not a truck.

I admit, I haven't looked into this deeply. But I know that
transmission
coolers are sold as accessories for automatic transmissions used in
towing:
https://www.aamcocolorado.com/what-y...ssion-coolers/

* That gives me pause, especially with the warranty issue.

Perhaps those coolers aren't quite as important in these days of
locking
torque converters, but my understanding is that they lock up only at
cruising speed; so if I were towing slowly up a mountain, I'd think
there would be a potential for transmission overheating. And we have
towed this trailer over the Appalachians and Rockies many times.

The Mazda is the fourth little car with which we've towed this same
trailer, all with manual transmissions. (I've never owned an
automatic.)
None had any transmission problem, and only the last one, the Pontiac
Vibe, ever had a clutch problem, a very slight occasional slip once it
was 10+ years old. But since slipping clutches were a known issue with
old Vibes, it probably had little or nothing to do with the towing.

Regarding torque: There's always been enough to climb mountains, etc.
even when the car towing this trailer was a 1985 Honda Civic. We just
went up fairly slowly in a low gear. I the manual transmission didn't
seem to care. I suspect an automatic trans might.

All auto transmissions used to have a cooler as initially installed
but I just went out and had a look at my wife's new Honda and while
the engine compartment is pretty crowded I certainly can't see a
transmission cooler so I assume that they are no longer necessary.
Looking at the parts list there appears to be a "transmission warmer"
though.
--
cheers,

John B.

Browning had a so called automatic transmission for bicycles. I
wonder how long it will be now that electronics are so small before a
genuine automatic transmission will be available for bicycles? After
all, we do have electronic shifting for bicycles that seems to have
all the bugs worked out of it.

Cheers

Apparently someone has built one. See:
http://evworld.com/urban.cfm?newsid=52
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2010/nuvinc...cvt-test-ride/
--
cheers,

John B.


Nuvinci are CVT=infinite step not an actual auto.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVINCI.JPG

IIRC, the NuVinci is pretty inefficient. Lots more energy lost inside
the box than with typical gears.

The solution is to use them on a red bicycle which will, of course,
negate any frictional losses that may exist.
--
cheers,

John B.