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Recumbent Accident Rates?



 
 
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  #151  
Old May 9th 11, 10:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jay Beattie
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Posts: 4,322
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 9, 8:49*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On May 8, 1:29 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

I rode and raced without a helmet at various times .. and yes, I did not die of a head injury.


Not surprising. *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug-
induced heart failure. *One was due to head injury (sliding into a
concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards),
one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There
would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had
walked the course!


Why only death statistics. Again, I never said that helmets will
prevent death. I'm talking about head injury including scalp wounds:

"Despite his successes, Merckx was not immune to injury and accident
as this race in 1969 illustrates. Merckx was in a derny-paced
exhibition race toward the end of the season. These are races in which
cyclists each follow their own motorcycle pacer around an oval track.
A pacer and cyclist fell in front of Merckx forcing Merckx and his
pacer to fall. Merckx’s pacer was killed instantly. Merckx was knocked
unconscious and was bleeding heavily from a head wound. Merckx
suffered a concussion and required stitches to close the gaping
wound."

Hey, no gaping head wound if you wear a hardshell helmet. I think he
was a hairnet guy on the track.-- Jay Beattie.



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  #152  
Old May 9th 11, 10:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 2:26 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 9, 8:49 am, Frank wrote:
On May 8, 1:29 pm, Jay wrote:

I rode and raced without a helmet at various times .. and yes, I did not die of a head injury.


Not surprising. We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. One was drug-
induced heart failure. One was due to head injury (sliding into a
concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards),
one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There
would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had
walked the course!


Why only death statistics.


I'm pretty sure that you know why.
  #153  
Old May 9th 11, 10:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Michael Press
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Posts: 9,202
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Â*Frank Krygowski wrote:

Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug-
induced heart failure.


Fail. Stop spreading that rumor.
The death had nothing to do with drugs.
Unfortunately everybody says so.
He died because the race organizers
severely restricted the amount of
water a racer could have, and the
racer died from dehydration.


Really? That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Can you
give the source?


Does not matter. This version is outvoted.
Speed kills, but not right away. A heroin
overdose can kill right away. So can severe dehydration.

--
Michael Press
  #154  
Old May 10th 11, 02:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 9, 5:26*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 9, 8:49*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug-
induced heart failure. *One was due to head injury (sliding into a
concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards),
one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There
would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had
walked the course!


Why only death statistics. *Again, I never said that helmets will
prevent death. *I'm talking about head injury including scalp wounds:

"Despite his successes, Merckx was not immune to injury and accident
as this race in 1969 illustrates. Merckx was in a derny-paced
exhibition race toward the end of the season. These are races in which
cyclists each follow their own motorcycle pacer around an oval track.
A pacer and cyclist fell in front of Merckx forcing Merckx and his
pacer to fall. Merckx’s pacer was killed instantly. Merckx was knocked
unconscious and was bleeding heavily from a head wound. Merckx
suffered a concussion and required stitches to close the gaping
wound."

Hey, no gaping head wound if you wear a hardshell helmet. I think he
was a hairnet guy on the track.


Why only death statistics? The main reason is that they are kept very
carefully. Another important reason is that there is little doubt or
debate about whether a death has occurred. This prevents silliness
like the recent Portland study that classified a bicycling injury as
"serious" if any medical person had looked at it - remember? One of
the researchers specifically said a skinned knee could be counted as
"serious" if the cyclist showed it to a doctor.

And keep in mind that the anecdote (not data) you posted was a _track_
event, one of the situations I already named as more likely to benefit
from helmet use. Another was aggressive mountain biking, so don't
bother to follow it up with a mountain biking anecdote, OK?

I've been saying ordinary riding does not impose an unusual risk of
serious head injury. I brought up the Tour as evidence that even road
racing at that level doesn't seem very risky. We could keep talking
about road racing for a while if you like, but my real point was about
ordinary, non-competitive riding. Riding for recreation. Riding for
utility transportation. Commuting. Touring.

But if you've got information showing a high rate of "serious" head
injuries in, say, road racing cyclists before 1975, and large
reductions in that rate once styrofoam helmets came into use, heck,
let's see them!

Meanwhile, while not properly documented, this guy claims to have some
comparative data.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIurRqi6ySw

- Frank Krygowski
  #155  
Old May 10th 11, 09:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Â*Frank Krygowski wrote:

Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug-
induced heart failure.


Fail. Stop spreading that rumor.
The death had nothing to do with drugs.
Unfortunately everybody says so.
He died because the race organizers
severely restricted the amount of
water a racer could have, and the
racer died from dehydration.


Really? That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Can you
give the source?


Can you support your version?

--
Michael Press
  #156  
Old May 10th 11, 02:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 10, 4:45*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*Frank Krygowski wrote:



On May 9, 4:31*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Not surprising. *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug-
induced heart failure.


Fail. Stop spreading that rumor.
The death had nothing to do with drugs.
Unfortunately everybody says so.
He died because the race organizers
severely restricted the amount of
water a racer could have, and the
racer died from dehydration.


Really? *That's the first time I've ever heard that version. *Can you
give the source?


Can you support your version?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson

"Tom Simpson (30 November 1937–13 July 1967) was the most successful
English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died
of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of
the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken
amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal
when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a
stomach complaint."

This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die
of a head injury.

- Frank Krygowski
  #157  
Old May 10th 11, 06:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On May 10, 4:45Â*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Â*Frank Krygowski wrote:



On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Â*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug-
induced heart failure.


Fail. Stop spreading that rumor.
The death had nothing to do with drugs.
Unfortunately everybody says so.
He died because the race organizers
severely restricted the amount of
water a racer could have, and the
racer died from dehydration.


Really? Â*That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Â*Can you
give the source?


Can you support your version?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson

"Tom Simpson (30 November 1937–13 July 1967) was the most successful
English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died
of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of
the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken
amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal
when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a
stomach complaint."

This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die
of a head injury.


Why doesn't the article mention the severe restriction
on water intake imposed by the race organizers? He died
of overheating induced by dehydration.

--
Michael Press
  #158  
Old May 11th 11, 01:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
TÂșm ShermÂȘnℱ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 9:20 AM, SMS wrote:
On 5/5/2011 6:24 PM, Tom Lake wrote:
On Thu, 05 May 2011 18:07:45 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech TÂșm ShermÂȘnℱ
" wrote:

Studies have shown that motorists pass closer to lidded cyclists than
those riding sans foam bicycle hat. Dr. Mengele, where art thou? As
history
shows, the "obvious" can be scientifically wrong. The answer is
obvious to anyone
who is rational and has bothered to study the issue - bicycle foam
hats provide bump and scrape protection, but do not significantly reduce
serious brain injuries and deaths. Why boast of your ignorance?



Well, again, there simply aren't any data to support that. There
aren't any to support that helmets *do* reduce closed head trauma,
either because the research design, as you pointed out, does not allow
such a conclusion.


And of course "studies" have shown is not true. It's "study" not
"studies" and calling it a "study" is a huge stretch. And even if it is
actually true, and there's no evidence of it, the "study" did NOT show
any increase in the accident rate by motorists passing closer.

It has been my experience that the best way to "prove" something is to
find what the person really believes to be true. Remember the
"proven" weapons of mass destruction in Iraq back in 2002... what ever
happened to them?


Sadly, "following the tribe" has replaced analyzing evidence, and this
is very much the case with the AHZs.


Once again, Scharf projects his own failings onto others.

--
TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #159  
Old May 11th 11, 02:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
TÂșm ShermÂȘnℱ °_°[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,270
Default Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 9:24 AM, SMS wrote:
On 5/5/2011 6:54 PM, Tom Lake wrote:

Sheese... did they quit teaching basic research methodology to
undergrads? Back in 1970 (when I had to walk to school... two
miles... ) it was required core. I took it in my junior year, I
recall. Did you know that studies have shown that virtually *every*
sentence citing: "Studies have shown..." is utter nonsense. That's
been proven, you know!


I'm not sure that he doesn't understand that his "research" is flawed
(or non-existent). The problem is that there is no research that
supports his position, so he makes it up.

Be especially careful when you see the phrase "studies show" without any
mention of the study. You can be sure that you're about to see something
this has no supporting evidence. Also be careful about what some people
believe constitutes a "study."

One of my favorites is covered in Myth 8 on the web site:

Myth 8: Studies show that when helmets are mandated bicycling rates fall
by 30%.

Fact 8: One group in Australia counted the number of cyclists on the one
day of the year before and after a helmet law went into effect and
claimed that they counted 30% fewer cyclists. While any statistician
would laugh this study off because of its methodology, this “study” has
taken on a life of its own among those opposed to helmets. In fact, the
group conducting the study intentionally left out large numbers of
cyclists going by, claiming that they were part of a “bike rally” and
hence should not be counted. Also never mentioned is that future counts
showed that the number of cyclists quickly went back up to the pre-law
level (or course the level never went down 30% to begin with, if it went
down at all). It's junk science and junk statistics at its worst.

Anytime you see the 30% number used on a web site opposing the use of
helmets, you can be pretty certain that the rest of the material on the
web site is equally flawed.

In fact, every study shows that cycling rates have increased after
helmet laws. But there is no proof that the helmet law was the cause for
the increase. One could create several reasons why an mandatory helmet
law could possibly be the cause of the increase, but that would be pure
speculation. There could be multiple causes for increases and decreases
in the number of cyclists on the same month and day one year apart.
Weather, a large change in the price of fuel, mass transit issues, etc.
A statistically sound survey would do daily counts over much a longer
period of time.

When someone incorrectly claims that there was a decrease in cycling
following the adoption of a helmet law, and claims that the helmet law
was responsible, they're beginning with a false premise, then
speculating as to how something that didn't happen was caused by the new
law.


Scharf again cites his own website as an authority.

Y Y A W W NN N
Y Y A A W W W N N N
Y Y A A W W W W N N N
Y A A W W W W N N N
Y AAAAAAAAA W W W W N N N
Y A A W W W W N N N
Y A A W W N NN

--
TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #160  
Old May 11th 11, 02:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
TÂșm ShermÂȘnℱ °_°[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,270
Default Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 10:28 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
considered Mon, 09 May 2011 07:24:54
-0700 the perfect time to write:

nothing, once the lies had been trimmed out


+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000

--
TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
 




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