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  #141  
Old March 15th 17, 06:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default More About Lights

On 3/15/2017 10:53 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode really
:fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the wheels were wet even
:when I used the rubber boot sold to go on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub
:dynamos today really seem to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light at higher
speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it, because you're not
moving fast.


That's my experience too. The last time I recall not having enough
light at low speeds was in a dark campground with a pre-halogen dynamo
light with lousy optics. That was about 1980, IIRC. With the modern
LED dynamo lights, it's never even come close to happening, even at
walking speed.


--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #142  
Old March 15th 17, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default More About Lights

On 3/14/2017 10:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/13/2017 2:06 PM, Joerg wrote:

Then you'd be back to this inferior dynamo lighting which goes out at
the traffic light, or uses dimmed or short-lived light if there is a
supercap installed.


Where are the tragic tales of cyclists who are seriously injured or
killed because their dynamo standlights were too dim or too short-lived?
Somehow those tales have failed to make it into the safety literature!


There are no such tales because a cyclist that is not in motion could
be considered a pedestrian.

"Pedestrian Deaths Make Up a Rising Share of U.S. Traffic Fatalities"
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/03/09/pedestrian-deaths-make-up-a-rising-share-of-u-s-traffic-fatalities/
"In a typical year, nearly 5,000 Americans are killed while
walking".
I wonder how many of those were actually cyclists walking their
bicycles or waiting at a stop sign or signal (with or without a stand
light)?


I suspect the answer is zero. Especially those waiting at stop signs or
signals.

But a cyclist walking his bike _is_ a pedestrian, and has no more legal
or practical need for a light than a pedestrian does.

Sometimes when walking at night, I'll carry a small flashlight. But
people do not normally do that. Think back to the last few times you
parked your car and walked from the car to a store or movie theater at
night.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #143  
Old March 15th 17, 07:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default More About Lights

On 3/14/2017 11:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:09:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
But the point I was discussing was whether too brief or too dim
standlights really kill or seriously injure _stationary_ bicyclists.
I've never heard of such a case. I think it's yet another exaggerated
danger.


Bicycle lighting seems to be divided into "see where your going" and
"be seen" parts. Standlights are in the "be seen" part. If so, then
using a relatively narrow forward facing headlight is inadequate and a
poor substitute for all around "be seen" type lighting.

So far, no driver has tried to kill me while I'm stationary, but it's
possible. To help prevent such a threat, I would need all around
illumination because I don't know from what direction the driver might
approach and I do NOT need to see where I'm going (because I'm not
going anywhere). Some kind of flashing headband, flashing arm bands,
or maybe downward facing flood lights to illuminate an area. Maybe an
LED illuminated vest, which is now popular among highway workers:
https://www.amazon.com/HIGH-VISIBILITY-VEST-COMPLIANT-REFLECTIVE/dp/B01L2US0EY
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP08L-Illuminated-Flashing-Feature/dp/B008WAE2XQ
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP07L-Flashing-Illuminated-Safety/dp/B004J663A2
I don't know which type of "be seen" lighting might be most effective,
but any of the aformentioned would be better than a dim forward facing
standlight.


Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.

We're facing the same mentality regarding our local forest preserve.
Some people want to cut down every dead or dying tree within 100 feet of
any trail because, well, it _could_ fall on somebody and kill them. Sheesh.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #144  
Old March 15th 17, 07:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default More About Lights

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 2:05:09 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2017 10:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/13/2017 2:06 PM, Joerg wrote:

Then you'd be back to this inferior dynamo lighting which goes out at
the traffic light, or uses dimmed or short-lived light if there is a
supercap installed.


Where are the tragic tales of cyclists who are seriously injured or
killed because their dynamo standlights were too dim or too short-lived?
Somehow those tales have failed to make it into the safety literature!


There are no such tales because a cyclist that is not in motion could
be considered a pedestrian.

"Pedestrian Deaths Make Up a Rising Share of U.S. Traffic Fatalities"
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/03/09/pedestrian-deaths-make-up-a-rising-share-of-u-s-traffic-fatalities/
"In a typical year, nearly 5,000 Americans are killed while
walking".
I wonder how many of those were actually cyclists walking their
bicycles or waiting at a stop sign or signal (with or without a stand
light)?


I suspect the answer is zero. Especially those waiting at stop signs or
signals.

But a cyclist walking his bike _is_ a pedestrian, and has no more legal
or practical need for a light than a pedestrian does.

Sometimes when walking at night, I'll carry a small flashlight. But
people do not normally do that. Think back to the last few times you
parked your car and walked from the car to a store or movie theater at
night.


-
- Frank Krygowski


I see a lot more people at night wearing a reflective vest or carrying a flashlight than I did five or ten years ago. It seems too that a lot of pedestrians are very concerned about distracted drivers.

Cheers
  #145  
Old March 15th 17, 07:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default More About Lights

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 2:08:49 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2017 11:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:09:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
But the point I was discussing was whether too brief or too dim
standlights really kill or seriously injure _stationary_ bicyclists.
I've never heard of such a case. I think it's yet another exaggerated
danger.


Bicycle lighting seems to be divided into "see where your going" and
"be seen" parts. Standlights are in the "be seen" part. If so, then
using a relatively narrow forward facing headlight is inadequate and a
poor substitute for all around "be seen" type lighting.

So far, no driver has tried to kill me while I'm stationary, but it's
possible. To help prevent such a threat, I would need all around
illumination because I don't know from what direction the driver might
approach and I do NOT need to see where I'm going (because I'm not
going anywhere). Some kind of flashing headband, flashing arm bands,
or maybe downward facing flood lights to illuminate an area. Maybe an
LED illuminated vest, which is now popular among highway workers:
https://www.amazon.com/HIGH-VISIBILITY-VEST-COMPLIANT-REFLECTIVE/dp/B01L2US0EY
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP08L-Illuminated-Flashing-Feature/dp/B008WAE2XQ
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP07L-Flashing-Illuminated-Safety/dp/B004J663A2
I don't know which type of "be seen" lighting might be most effective,
but any of the aformentioned would be better than a dim forward facing
standlight.


Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.

We're facing the same mentality regarding our local forest preserve.
Some people want to cut down every dead or dying tree within 100 feet of
any trail because, well, it _could_ fall on somebody and kill them. Sheesh.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I remember the Soubitez (sp?) ads from the 1980s that showed a stopped bicycle without a front light at an intersection at night and another image of the Soubitez dynamo light with the standlight. The ad was about how much safer yuo were with the Soubitez dynamo because others could see the light whilst you were stopped or just starting up again. So this perceived need for a safety standlight on a dynamo powered light is nothing new.

Cheers
  #146  
Old March 15th 17, 08:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,346
Default More About Lights

jbeattie wrote:
:On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
: Sir Ridesalot wrote:
:
: :I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode really
: :fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the wheels were wet even
: :when I used the rubber boot sold to go on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub
: :dynamos today really seem to fall down at slow speeds.
:
: Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light at higher
: speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it, because you're not
: moving fast.
:

:I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

I assure you the potholes in Chicago are as least as big as yours, and
my lights are fine for finding them as slow as I can ride a bike
upright. Perhaps your hub is defective.

--
sig 102
  #147  
Old March 15th 17, 08:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default More About Lights

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:45:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode really
:fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the wheels were wet even
:when I used the rubber boot sold to go on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub
:dynamos today really seem to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light at higher
speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it, because you're not
moving fast.


I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Where are you on Strava


No Strava. No Garmin. My cyclometer is broken. I might as well be back in the stoneage.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #148  
Old March 15th 17, 08:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default More About Lights

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 12:19:18 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:45:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode really
:fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the wheels were wet even
:when I used the rubber boot sold to go on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub
:dynamos today really seem to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light at higher
speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it, because you're not
moving fast.


I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Where are you on Strava


No Strava. No Garmin. My cyclometer is broken. I might as well be back in the stoneage.

-- Jay Beattie.


Strava's just for fun. I don't use a cyclometer any more. I just count rear tires and multiply by 1500 now.
  #149  
Old March 15th 17, 08:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default More About Lights

On 3/15/2017 2:43 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 2:05:09 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2017 10:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:19:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/13/2017 2:06 PM, Joerg wrote:

Then you'd be back to this inferior dynamo lighting which goes out at
the traffic light, or uses dimmed or short-lived light if there is a
supercap installed.

Where are the tragic tales of cyclists who are seriously injured or
killed because their dynamo standlights were too dim or too short-lived?
Somehow those tales have failed to make it into the safety literature!

There are no such tales because a cyclist that is not in motion could
be considered a pedestrian.

"Pedestrian Deaths Make Up a Rising Share of U.S. Traffic Fatalities"
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/03/09/pedestrian-deaths-make-up-a-rising-share-of-u-s-traffic-fatalities/
"In a typical year, nearly 5,000 Americans are killed while
walking".
I wonder how many of those were actually cyclists walking their
bicycles or waiting at a stop sign or signal (with or without a stand
light)?


I suspect the answer is zero. Especially those waiting at stop signs or
signals.

But a cyclist walking his bike _is_ a pedestrian, and has no more legal
or practical need for a light than a pedestrian does.

Sometimes when walking at night, I'll carry a small flashlight. But
people do not normally do that. Think back to the last few times you
parked your car and walked from the car to a store or movie theater at
night.


-
- Frank Krygowski


I see a lot more people at night wearing a reflective vest or carrying a flashlight than I did five or ten years ago. It seems too that a lot of pedestrians are very concerned about distracted drivers.


Sure. Safety inflation is a real thing. Ten years ago, walking on a
sidewalk did not trigger a need for a luminous vest. Now I see people
wearing those things even on sidewalks.

So why the change? Is it because it's really gotten so much more
dangerous? I doubt it. Pedestrian fatalities did jump up a bit in the
last year for which I find NHTSA data (2014) but they jumped up to a
number less than the one for 2004.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #150  
Old March 15th 17, 08:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default More About Lights

On 3/15/2017 2:48 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 2:08:49 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2017 11:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:09:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
But the point I was discussing was whether too brief or too dim
standlights really kill or seriously injure _stationary_ bicyclists.
I've never heard of such a case. I think it's yet another exaggerated
danger.

Bicycle lighting seems to be divided into "see where your going" and
"be seen" parts. Standlights are in the "be seen" part. If so, then
using a relatively narrow forward facing headlight is inadequate and a
poor substitute for all around "be seen" type lighting.

So far, no driver has tried to kill me while I'm stationary, but it's
possible. To help prevent such a threat, I would need all around
illumination because I don't know from what direction the driver might
approach and I do NOT need to see where I'm going (because I'm not
going anywhere). Some kind of flashing headband, flashing arm bands,
or maybe downward facing flood lights to illuminate an area. Maybe an
LED illuminated vest, which is now popular among highway workers:
https://www.amazon.com/HIGH-VISIBILITY-VEST-COMPLIANT-REFLECTIVE/dp/B01L2US0EY
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP08L-Illuminated-Flashing-Feature/dp/B008WAE2XQ
https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP07L-Flashing-Illuminated-Safety/dp/B004J663A2
I don't know which type of "be seen" lighting might be most effective,
but any of the aformentioned would be better than a dim forward facing
standlight.


Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.

We're facing the same mentality regarding our local forest preserve.
Some people want to cut down every dead or dying tree within 100 feet of
any trail because, well, it _could_ fall on somebody and kill them. Sheesh.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I remember the Soubitez (sp?) ads from the 1980s that showed a stopped bicycle without a front light at an intersection at night and another image of the Soubitez dynamo light with the standlight. The ad was about how much safer yuo were with the Soubitez dynamo because others could see the light whilst you were stopped or just starting up again. So this perceived need for a safety standlight on a dynamo powered light is nothing new.


As I recall, that system failed in the marketplace. The idea might have
existed in a few minds back then, but it wasn't common enough to be
commercially successful.

The same could be said of many present "safety" devices. You'd have
gone broke trying to sell "walker safety vests" in the 1970s or 1980s.
Ditto little hammers to let you break your car window if you were
trapped inside. Or foam pads to put on the corner of every hard object
your toddler might walk by. Or bathtub mats that say "HOT" when the
water is, well, hot. But all those things have been sold recently.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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