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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' status forbike shops"



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 8th 20, 08:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' status for bike shops"

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but
a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear
to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to
completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions
from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost
impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having
antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those
who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies.


1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV.
https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details

2. You claims that:
...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already
know that they do not have the antibodies.
If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested
would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical
percentages running around 10% to 30% positive.
https://covidtracking.com/data
For example, for California, the current positive rate is:
15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1%
If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the
percentage would be:
(15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8%
which is still much less than what I would expect from a test
population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms.

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #12  
Old April 8th 20, 02:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On 4/8/2020 2:15 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi:

I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't
anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately,
we'll know a lot more in a couple of years.


Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took
the stuff without medical supervision and killed themselves
with it.

It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the
public rather than proposing medicine to doctors who
prescribe it to sufferers.


Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for
practice and recently fatal on the second adventure)

Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart
failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some
300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers.

https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-t...alarial-drugs/

Note condraindications are after sustained use for years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #13  
Old April 8th 20, 02:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On 4/8/2020 2:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but
a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear
to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to
completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions
from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost
impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having
antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those
who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies.


1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV.
https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details

2. You claims that:
...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already
know that they do not have the antibodies.
If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested
would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical
percentages running around 10% to 30% positive.
https://covidtracking.com/data
For example, for California, the current positive rate is:
15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1%
If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the
percentage would be:
(15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8%
which is still much less than what I would expect from a test
population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms.


As is so often the case, Tom conflated the reports from
India mostly but also China on positive effect of some HIV
antivirals such as lopinavir. This has, just like Lupus,
left some chronically ill people without their maintenance
prescriptions.

There's a lot in Tom's brain but it doesn't always escape in
readable form.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old April 8th 20, 06:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 1:33:27 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but


"Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out
the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
"social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.

a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to
have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus,


Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
those by the millions of doses.

hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
symptoms in 8 to 12 hours


Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
would be tremendously helpful.

and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof
of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only
testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not
have the antibodies.


Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he
can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This
is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
antibodies and immunities.

Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the
transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and
showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing
with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is
limited.


The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.

Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
continue to disregard reality.


Tim, I'm sue that you can have any crazy idea you like. Doctors that have been interviewed on FOX and nurses as well are saying this same thing. But you believe them to be Trump apologists and not medical personnel with intelligence.
  #15  
Old April 8th 20, 06:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 3:22:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but


"Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out
the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
"social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.

a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to
have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus,


Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
those by the millions of doses.

hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
symptoms in 8 to 12 hours


Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
would be tremendously helpful.

and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof
of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only
testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not
have the antibodies.


Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he
can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This
is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
antibodies and immunities.

Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the
transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and
showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing
with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is
limited.


The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.

Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
continue to disregard reality.



"Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet"


That was demographically posited weeks before the President
mentioned it because Lupus sufferers, who are prescribed
hydrochloroquine, were underrepresented in Wuhan virus
positives. After noticing that anomaly, a French doctor
tried a small set with positive indications, followed by
others in other countries.

I pointedly did not say 'proven' or 'effective' or 'cured'
because so far no one has run a 'half get treated, half die'
test. But as was clearly stated, 'may be helpful'.

Even I am surprised at how vicious the criticism of that
statement has been, claiming the protocol will needlessly
kill people, DJT is no doctor and so on. So I called an
acquaintance who lives with Lupus. She reports no problems
after some 20 years of using hydrochloroquine. In fact, one
reason it's suddenly available in great quantities is that
it's neither new nor rare.

As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do
not like the guy" would be much better than making things up.



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Hydroxychloroquine is not a "cure" it gives close to total symptom relief reportedly in 8 to 12 hours. Seems like a good idea to me.
  #16  
Old April 8th 20, 06:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 5:14:23 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:53:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but

"Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out
the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
"social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.

a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to
have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus,

Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
those by the millions of doses.

hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
symptoms in 8 to 12 hours

Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
would be tremendously helpful.

and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof
of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only
testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not
have the antibodies.

Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then
he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This
is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
antibodies and immunities.

Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the
transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and
showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing
with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is
limited.

The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.

Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
continue to disregard reality.



Left wing source, quoting a Democrat Party elected official:

https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmake...aved-her-life-

recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469

Again, another antedotal mention without medical proof.
Obviousy not a whacko christian otherwise they'de have stated that
reading the bible saved them

FWIW, the french study has been shown to have cerry picked tat data to
suport their hypothesis.
The wuhan data is also purely antedotal, and in the first place it
wasonly reported as helping with symptoms in mild cases and not as
preventative or a cure.

Reminds me of horehound; as an ammeliorate, the disease is often a better
choice.
The


Tell you what, by all means do not take this stuff because it is only anecdotal evidence of its efficaciousness.
  #17  
Old April 8th 20, 06:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:53:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/8/2020 2:15 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi:

I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't
anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately,
we'll know a lot more in a couple of years.


Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took
the stuff without medical supervision and killed themselves
with it.

It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the
public rather than proposing medicine to doctors who
prescribe it to sufferers.


Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for
practice and recently fatal on the second adventure)

Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart
failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some
300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers.

https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-t...alarial-drugs/

Note condraindications are after sustained use for years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Hydroxychloroquine may be safe and effective in COVID-19 patients, but we -- meaning us people on this NG -- don't know. The FDA, CDC, NIH have the research and adverse incident reports. Real scientific-like people will make the determination.

Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw **** out to make a media splash.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #18  
Old April 8th 20, 06:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 5:25:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2020 7:14 PM, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:53:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but

"Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out
the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
"social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.

a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to
have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus,

Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
those by the millions of doses.

hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
symptoms in 8 to 12 hours

Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
would be tremendously helpful.

and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof
of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only
testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not
have the antibodies.

Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then
he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This
is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
antibodies and immunities.

Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the
transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and
showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing
with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is
limited.

The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.

Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
continue to disregard reality.



Left wing source, quoting a Democrat Party elected official:

https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmake...aved-her-life-

recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469

Again, another antedotal mention without medical proof.
Obviousy not a whacko christian otherwise they'de have stated that
reading the bible saved them

FWIW, the french study has been shown to have cerry picked tat data to
suport their hypothesis.
The wuhan data is also purely antedotal, and in the first place it
wasonly reported as helping with symptoms in mild cases and not as
preventative or a cure.

Reminds me of horehound; as an ammeliorate, the disease is often a better
choice.
The


I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't
anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately,
we'll know a lot more in a couple of years.

That said, for a guy who cannot breathe now, waiting a few
years for a more full understanding is a poor choice.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I've gone over this stuff before. They have NO reports of this stuff used for malaria or lupus or extreme arthritis above very seldom allergic induced skin rash.

The typical dosage for Lupus is 10 mg/kg for life and the typical dosage for covid-19 is 7.8 mg/kg for two weeks at the most.

What I would like most of all is why people who do not require this stuff are those claiming it to be ineffective.
  #19  
Old April 8th 20, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:47:18 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but
a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear
to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to
completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions
from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost
impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having
antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those
who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies..


1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV.
https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details

2. You claims that:
...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already
know that they do not have the antibodies.
If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested
would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical
percentages running around 10% to 30% positive.
https://covidtracking.com/data
For example, for California, the current positive rate is:
15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1%
If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the
percentage would be:
(15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8%
which is still much less than what I would expect from a test
population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms.

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Around here they are ONLY testing people with a dry cough and high fevers. Their positive rates are nearly 100%. In other places such a the middle-of-nowhere Utah the positive rate would probably be close to zero.

Where ever they have a high testing rate they have a low number of positives. This does NOT mean that they have not been exposed to the virus. It means that their bodies immune systems reacted rapidly enough to destroy the virus before it could infect their bodies. This is the same thing with vaccinated flu people. Not having testing positive does NOT mean having been exposed. The Covid-19 is very similar to one of the rhino viruses that cause the common cold.

Without very widespread testing (also with a test that can test for people that HAD the symptomless infection and gotten over it) we are doing nothing but shooting at stars.
  #20  
Old April 8th 20, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default "Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"

On 4/8/2020 10:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw **** out to make a media splash.


People have already died as a result of Trump touting these unproven
drugs. But of course the number that have died by taking these drugs is
much smaller than the number that have died due to federal government's
horribly botched response to Covid-19.

While I don't personally know any people clueless enough to believe
anything Trump says, there are apparently such people in the world,
including one on r.b.t.
 




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