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#12
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On 4/8/2020 2:15 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi: I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately, we'll know a lot more in a couple of years. Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took the stuff without medical supervision and killed themselves with it. It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the public rather than proposing medicine to doctors who prescribe it to sufferers. Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for practice and recently fatal on the second adventure) Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some 300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers. https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-t...alarial-drugs/ Note condraindications are after sustained use for years. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#13
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On 4/8/2020 2:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. 1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV. https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details 2. You claims that: ...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical percentages running around 10% to 30% positive. https://covidtracking.com/data For example, for California, the current positive rate is: 15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1% If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the percentage would be: (15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8% which is still much less than what I would expect from a test population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms. As is so often the case, Tom conflated the reports from India mostly but also China on positive effect of some HIV antivirals such as lopinavir. This has, just like Lupus, left some chronically ill people without their maintenance prescriptions. There's a lot in Tom's brain but it doesn't always escape in readable form. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#14
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 1:33:27 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but "Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place," "social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions. a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make those by the millions of doses. hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19 would be tremendously helpful. and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in antibodies and immunities. Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is limited. The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co. There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives. Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please continue to disregard reality. Tim, I'm sue that you can have any crazy idea you like. Doctors that have been interviewed on FOX and nurses as well are saying this same thing. But you believe them to be Trump apologists and not medical personnel with intelligence. |
#15
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 3:22:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but "Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place," "social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions. a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make those by the millions of doses. hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19 would be tremendously helpful. and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in antibodies and immunities. Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is limited. The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co. There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives. Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please continue to disregard reality. "Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable medical professionals yet" That was demographically posited weeks before the President mentioned it because Lupus sufferers, who are prescribed hydrochloroquine, were underrepresented in Wuhan virus positives. After noticing that anomaly, a French doctor tried a small set with positive indications, followed by others in other countries. I pointedly did not say 'proven' or 'effective' or 'cured' because so far no one has run a 'half get treated, half die' test. But as was clearly stated, 'may be helpful'. Even I am surprised at how vicious the criticism of that statement has been, claiming the protocol will needlessly kill people, DJT is no doctor and so on. So I called an acquaintance who lives with Lupus. She reports no problems after some 20 years of using hydrochloroquine. In fact, one reason it's suddenly available in great quantities is that it's neither new nor rare. As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do not like the guy" would be much better than making things up. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Hydroxychloroquine is not a "cure" it gives close to total symptom relief reportedly in 8 to 12 hours. Seems like a good idea to me. |
#16
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 5:14:23 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:53:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but "Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place," "social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions. a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make those by the millions of doses. hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19 would be tremendously helpful. and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in antibodies and immunities. Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is limited. The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co. There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives. Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please continue to disregard reality. Left wing source, quoting a Democrat Party elected official: https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmake...aved-her-life- recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469 Again, another antedotal mention without medical proof. Obviousy not a whacko christian otherwise they'de have stated that reading the bible saved them FWIW, the french study has been shown to have cerry picked tat data to suport their hypothesis. The wuhan data is also purely antedotal, and in the first place it wasonly reported as helping with symptoms in mild cases and not as preventative or a cure. Reminds me of horehound; as an ammeliorate, the disease is often a better choice. The Tell you what, by all means do not take this stuff because it is only anecdotal evidence of its efficaciousness. |
#17
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:53:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/8/2020 2:15 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote: Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi: I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately, we'll know a lot more in a couple of years. Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took the stuff without medical supervision and killed themselves with it. It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the public rather than proposing medicine to doctors who prescribe it to sufferers. Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for practice and recently fatal on the second adventure) Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some 300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers. https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-t...alarial-drugs/ Note condraindications are after sustained use for years. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Hydroxychloroquine may be safe and effective in COVID-19 patients, but we -- meaning us people on this NG -- don't know. The FDA, CDC, NIH have the research and adverse incident reports. Real scientific-like people will make the determination. Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw **** out to make a media splash. -- Jay Beattie. |
#18
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 5:25:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2020 7:14 PM, news18 wrote: On Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:53:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but "Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place," "social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions. a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make those by the millions of doses. hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19 would be tremendously helpful. and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in antibodies and immunities. Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is limited. The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co. There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives. Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please continue to disregard reality. Left wing source, quoting a Democrat Party elected official: https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmake...aved-her-life- recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469 Again, another antedotal mention without medical proof. Obviousy not a whacko christian otherwise they'de have stated that reading the bible saved them FWIW, the french study has been shown to have cerry picked tat data to suport their hypothesis. The wuhan data is also purely antedotal, and in the first place it wasonly reported as helping with symptoms in mild cases and not as preventative or a cure. Reminds me of horehound; as an ammeliorate, the disease is often a better choice. The I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately, we'll know a lot more in a couple of years. That said, for a guy who cannot breathe now, waiting a few years for a more full understanding is a poor choice. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I've gone over this stuff before. They have NO reports of this stuff used for malaria or lupus or extreme arthritis above very seldom allergic induced skin rash. The typical dosage for Lupus is 10 mg/kg for life and the typical dosage for covid-19 is 7.8 mg/kg for two weeks at the most. What I would like most of all is why people who do not require this stuff are those claiming it to be ineffective. |
#19
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:47:18 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies.. 1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV. https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details 2. You claims that: ...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies. If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical percentages running around 10% to 30% positive. https://covidtracking.com/data For example, for California, the current positive rate is: 15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1% If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the percentage would be: (15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8% which is still much less than what I would expect from a test population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Around here they are ONLY testing people with a dry cough and high fevers. Their positive rates are nearly 100%. In other places such a the middle-of-nowhere Utah the positive rate would probably be close to zero. Where ever they have a high testing rate they have a low number of positives. This does NOT mean that they have not been exposed to the virus. It means that their bodies immune systems reacted rapidly enough to destroy the virus before it could infect their bodies. This is the same thing with vaccinated flu people. Not having testing positive does NOT mean having been exposed. The Covid-19 is very similar to one of the rhino viruses that cause the common cold. Without very widespread testing (also with a test that can test for people that HAD the symptomless infection and gotten over it) we are doing nothing but shooting at stars. |
#20
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"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' statusfor bike shops"
On 4/8/2020 10:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw **** out to make a media splash. People have already died as a result of Trump touting these unproven drugs. But of course the number that have died by taking these drugs is much smaller than the number that have died due to federal government's horribly botched response to Covid-19. While I don't personally know any people clueless enough to believe anything Trump says, there are apparently such people in the world, including one on r.b.t. |
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