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#21
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:14:39 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote: On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 6:19:59 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious. It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. Rapid product cycles are deemed necessary to sell bikes. Sales are in the toilet from what I've been told. Ebikes are being teed-up as the great savior because even sexed-up, 12sp Di2 with discs and the latest shiny things are not selling. Maybe going backwards speed-wise would sell. Like LPs and Trilby hats for the hipsters. Go back to five speed Schwinn Varsities. I was riding yesterday with my bike industry friend, and he was telling me about one odd effect of the tariffs -- Light and Motion is moving its production out of the US to, I think, Thailand because L&M mostly assembles Chinese parts. Domestic assembly does not make a product USian for tariff purposes. It's still deemed Chinese. If The Thais put it together and add value somehow, then it is not Chinese. So whatever goodness was added with US assembly of L&M products, that's now gone. -- Jay Beattie. The news had it yesterday that both U.S. and Chinese firms are "flocking" to Thailand to set up factories. In order, they say, "to stave off the impact of the prolonged US-China trade rift." and "executives from many US firms have sought a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Board of Investment (BoI) over the past several months to solicit assistance from the government to facilitate their relocation attempts. The Deputy Prime Minister has already assigned the BoI with designing relocation investment packages to fit their needs, Mr Kobsak said." (Note: The BoI operates under the aegis of the Prime Minister's Office.) -- cheers, John B. |
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#22
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious. It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. - Frank Krygowski |
#23
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On 11/18/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious. It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. - Frank Krygowski Isn't that sort of scaremongering usually phrased as , "Could possibly" or "may under some conditions" ? One datum: My salvage Kestrel 200 fixie shows no deterioration after 25 half-seasons of foul weather abuse in salt and abrasive crud. Notably, there are no rust bubbles typical to steel frames similarly punished. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#24
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On 11/18/2019 9:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model.* However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models.* This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious.* It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump.* Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.* Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels.* Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right?* ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration* in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. Indeed, isn't that what paint is for? Mark J. |
#25
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 9:33:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/18/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious. It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. - Frank Krygowski Isn't that sort of scaremongering usually phrased as , "Could possibly" or "may under some conditions" ? One datum: My salvage Kestrel 200 fixie shows no deterioration after 25 half-seasons of foul weather abuse in salt and abrasive crud. Notably, there are no rust bubbles typical to steel frames similarly punished. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Because of the large variations in use, aging of the resin, how much time in sunlight and the particular resins used the actual failure rates are pretty low. So you can't use one example as a measurement of time to failure. |
#26
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 11/18/2019 9:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model.* However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models.* This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious.* It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump.* Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.* Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels.* Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right?* ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration* in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. Indeed, isn't that what paint is for? Mark J. Infrared light goes straight through most paints. It is more a factor of heat than light. |
#27
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On Thursday, 14 November 2019 13:49:54 UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/11/pat...train-updates/ Peek into the future, where everything you know is wrong. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I just love how marketers keep saying obsolete. Heck I have Uniglide equipped bicycles that still function as well if not better than when they were new. I have a number of NOS Uniglide cassettes too. A HUGE advantage with Uniglide cassette cogs (other than the smallest one that screws on) is that when the cogs get worn you can reverse them and have shifting as good as or nearly as good as new. Cheers |
#28
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:13:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote: I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models. They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old and new colors would not color match very well and look rather atrocious. It seemed to work. Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)? Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that. I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7 speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-) Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle. Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc. At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water. I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until someone shows me good data. - Frank Krygowski I don't believe it is the carbon fiber per se but rather the epoxy resin that bonds the carbon fiber. I'm sure that you can find evidence of that as I've seen a number of studies. See: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511 Which states in the conclusion that "the transverse tensile strength decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation and condensation". 1,000 hours is 125 8 hour days or ~4 months. I believe that all CF frames have a layer of some sort of UV coating to prevent this sort of degradation.. See: https://www.toraytac.com/products/ad...urfacing-films https://www.epoxyproducts.com/uv.html for more on that subject. -- cheers, John B. |
#29
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On 11/14/2019 10:49 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/11/pat...train-updates/ Peek into the future, where everything you know is wrong. I guess I'll combine the Shimano 13 speed bottom bracket gearbox with a Nexus 8x3 rear hub so I can have 312 different gear ratios, and add a motorized front wheel so I never have to pedal. |
#30
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Your Bike is Obsolete
On 11/14/2019 4:50 PM, John B. wrote:
snip But the "consumers" don't know that they need the new things until they see them. Remember the days of the "10 speed English Racer"? Good Lord! Ten speeds? Who could use that many speeds? Today it is add another speed each year :-( “A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Steve Jobs |
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