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Your Bike is Obsolete



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 18th 19, 06:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:14:39 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 6:19:59 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning
the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to
work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look rather
atrocious. It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?


Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.


Rapid product cycles are deemed necessary to sell bikes. Sales are in the toilet from what I've been told. Ebikes are being teed-up as the great savior because even sexed-up, 12sp Di2 with discs and the latest shiny things are not selling. Maybe going backwards speed-wise would sell. Like LPs and Trilby hats for the hipsters. Go back to five speed Schwinn Varsities.

I was riding yesterday with my bike industry friend, and he was telling me about one odd effect of the tariffs -- Light and Motion is moving its production out of the US to, I think, Thailand because L&M mostly assembles Chinese parts. Domestic assembly does not make a product USian for tariff purposes. It's still deemed Chinese. If The Thais put it together and add value somehow, then it is not Chinese. So whatever goodness was added with US assembly of L&M products, that's now gone.

-- Jay Beattie.


The news had it yesterday that both U.S. and Chinese firms are
"flocking" to Thailand to set up factories. In order, they say, "to
stave off the impact of the prolonged US-China trade rift."
and
"executives from many US firms have sought a meeting with the Deputy
Prime Minister and the Board of Investment (BoI) over the past several
months to solicit assistance from the government to facilitate their
relocation attempts.

The Deputy Prime Minister has already assigned the BoI with designing
relocation investment packages to fit their needs, Mr Kobsak said."

(Note: The BoI operates under the aegis of the Prime Minister's
Office.)
--
cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #22  
Old November 18th 19, 06:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning
the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to
work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look rather
atrocious. It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?


Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7
speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-)


Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to
deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike
racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of
their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until
someone shows me good data.

- Frank Krygowski
  #23  
Old November 18th 19, 06:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On 11/18/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann

wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to
bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to
prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the
latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the
privilege of owning
the latest model. However, it was known that there was
a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and
accessories to
work with newer models. This couldn't easily be
prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a
combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look
rather
atrocious. It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle
manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way
that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and
pump. Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?

Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new
products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with
friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.
Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually
I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just
turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another
bike that uses 7
speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update-
they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-)


Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is
subject to
deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life.
Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist
and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon
fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like
10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of
sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least
until someone shows me good data.

- Frank Krygowski


Isn't that sort of scaremongering usually phrased as ,
"Could possibly" or "may under some conditions" ?

One datum: My salvage Kestrel 200 fixie shows no
deterioration after 25 half-seasons of foul weather abuse in
salt and abrasive crud. Notably, there are no rust bubbles
typical to steel frames similarly punished.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #24  
Old November 18th 19, 07:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On 11/18/2019 9:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning
the latest model.* However, it was known that there was a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to
work with newer models.* This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look rather
atrocious.* It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump.* Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?

Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.* Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7
speed freewheels.* Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right?* ;-)


Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to
deterioration* in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike
racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of
their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until
someone shows me good data.


Indeed, isn't that what paint is for?

Mark J.
  #25  
Old November 18th 19, 07:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 9:33:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/18/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann

wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to
bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to
prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the
latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the
privilege of owning
the latest model. However, it was known that there was
a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and
accessories to
work with newer models. This couldn't easily be
prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a
combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look
rather
atrocious. It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle
manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way
that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and
pump. Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?

Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new
products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with
friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.
Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually
I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just
turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another
bike that uses 7
speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update-
they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-)

Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is
subject to
deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life.
Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist
and bike racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon
fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like
10% of their strength in 10 years due to the effects of
sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least
until someone shows me good data.

- Frank Krygowski


Isn't that sort of scaremongering usually phrased as ,
"Could possibly" or "may under some conditions" ?

One datum: My salvage Kestrel 200 fixie shows no
deterioration after 25 half-seasons of foul weather abuse in
salt and abrasive crud. Notably, there are no rust bubbles
typical to steel frames similarly punished.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Because of the large variations in use, aging of the resin, how much time in sunlight and the particular resins used the actual failure rates are pretty low. So you can't use one example as a measurement of time to failure.
  #26  
Old November 18th 19, 07:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 11/18/2019 9:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning
the latest model.* However, it was known that there was a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to
work with newer models.* This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look rather
atrocious.* It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump.* Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?

Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes.* Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7
speed freewheels.* Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right?* ;-)

Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to
deterioration* in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike
racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of
their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until
someone shows me good data.


Indeed, isn't that what paint is for?

Mark J.


Infrared light goes straight through most paints. It is more a factor of heat than light.
  #27  
Old November 18th 19, 08:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 13:49:54 UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/11/pat...train-updates/

Peek into the future, where everything you know is wrong.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I just love how marketers keep saying obsolete. Heck I have Uniglide equipped bicycles that still function as well if not better than when they were new. I have a number of NOS Uniglide cassettes too. A HUGE advantage with Uniglide cassette cogs (other than the smallest one that screws on) is that when the cogs get worn you can reverse them and have shifting as good as or nearly as good as new.

Cheers
  #28  
Old November 19th 19, 12:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:13:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/17/2019 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:19:53 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:49:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I once was involved in a product design, not related to bicycling. The
new and improved model was designed specifically to prevent owners of
previous models from using parts and accessories on the latest models.
They were expected to buy everything new for the privilege of owning
the latest model. However, it was known that there was a substantial
number of "modders" who would modify the old parts and accessories to
work with newer models. This couldn't easily be prevented, so it was
decided to also change the color scheme so that a combination of old
and new colors would not color match very well and look rather
atrocious. It seemed to work.

Given the opportunity, I'm fairly sure the bicycle manufacturers would
change the Schrader or Presta valve stems in some way that buyers of a
new bicycle would also need to buy new tubes, rim, and pump. Short or
flush valve stems anyone (to reduce rotating mass)?

Planned obsolescence, a cornerstone of selling new products since at
least the Industrial Revolution and probably before that.

I had a custom frame built a couple of years ago with friction downtube
shifters, old Suntour derailleurs and 8 speed cassettes. Thank heavens
that there are still some parts available, but eventually I will have to
stock up with enough cassettes to see me out... just turned 60, hoping
to have at least another 30 years to ride. Got another bike that uses 7
speed freewheels. Once the frames wear out I'll update- they'll
probbaly be getting soft soon, right? ;-)


Of course. Everyone knows that steel breaks easily, is subject to
deterioration in sunlight and has a short service life. Best to get
rid of that old junk and buy a proper plastic bicycle.


Our bike club hosted a speaker a few days ago, a PhD chemist and bike
racer who talked about cross linking, about carbon fiber frames, etc.

At one point, she claimed that CF frames lose something like 10% of
their strength in 10 years due to the effects of sunlight and water.

I'm not a big fan of CF, but I'm skeptical of that, at least until
someone shows me good data.

- Frank Krygowski


I don't believe it is the carbon fiber per se but rather the epoxy
resin that bonds the carbon fiber. I'm sure that you can find evidence
of that as I've seen a number of studies. See:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...99802761675511

Which states in the conclusion that "the transverse tensile strength
decreasing by 29% after only 1000 h of cyclic exposure to UV radiation
and condensation". 1,000 hours is 125 8 hour days or ~4 months.

I believe that all CF frames have a layer of some sort of UV coating
to prevent this sort of degradation..

See:
https://www.toraytac.com/products/ad...urfacing-films
https://www.epoxyproducts.com/uv.html
for more on that subject.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #29  
Old November 19th 19, 05:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On 11/14/2019 10:49 AM, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/11/pat...train-updates/


Peek into the future, where everything you know is wrong.


I guess I'll combine the Shimano 13 speed bottom bracket gearbox with a
Nexus 8x3 rear hub so I can have 312 different gear ratios, and add a
motorized front wheel so I never have to pedal.
  #30  
Old November 19th 19, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Your Bike is Obsolete

On 11/14/2019 4:50 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

But the "consumers" don't know that they need the new things until
they see them. Remember the days of the "10 speed English Racer"?

Good Lord! Ten speeds? Who could use that many speeds?
Today it is add another speed each year :-(


“A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to
them.” Steve Jobs
 




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