Waterford Bicycles

On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.

+1


--
- Frank Krygowski

Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 00:41:13 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.
+1


--
- Frank Krygowski


I like a finish that still look good after a couple of years of hard use in all conditions. A spray painted steel frame is not on my list. My clear coated CF Super Record Campagnolo crankset looks better after 7 years of use then my Dura Ace crankset after half a year. YMMV.

Lou

On 1/16/2021 2:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 00:41:13 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.
+1


--
- Frank Krygowski


I like a finish that still look good after a couple of years of hard use in all conditions. A spray painted steel frame is not on my list. My clear coated CF Super Record Campagnolo crankset looks better after 7 years of use then my Dura Ace crankset after half a year. YMMV.

Lou


I'm conflicted.
My titanium frame always looks fresh and when it doesn't a
quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits
of both.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 15:21:59 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 1/16/2021 2:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 00:41:13 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.
+1


--
- Frank Krygowski


I like a finish that still look good after a couple of years of hard use in all conditions. A spray painted steel frame is not on my list. My clear coated CF Super Record Campagnolo crankset looks better after 7 years of use then my Dura Ace crankset after half a year. YMMV.

Lou

I'm conflicted.
My titanium frame always looks fresh and when it doesn't a
quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits
of both.


Of course, but it is like white bar tape or white cycling shorts ;-)

Lou

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:21:49 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/16/2021 2:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 00:41:13 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not
very popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert
o Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance
of the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not
correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me
with a bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one
year on RtR. When they built the frame, I had them
shorten the stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have
always wondered of that was a factor. Seems unlikely,
but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me
the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a
"sport" rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm
without. Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each
drawn from scratch, custom to rider requirements
including material and tube gauge. There are no other
quality differences between the two lines- materials,
welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars
are all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late
1997 or early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on
it. The first year with the new round top on the levers. I
bought my 1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short
point lugs) through an internet bike dealer who got frames
and bikes from all over and resold them. I did not buy
directly from Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought,
mine was in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it
was a great shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn
Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red
may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely
BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material
is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame.
Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure
aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel
frame and matching fork.
+1

I like a finish that still look good after a couple of years
of hard use in all conditions. A spray painted steel frame is
not on my list. My clear coated CF Super Record Campagnolo
crankset looks better after 7 years of use then my Dura Ace
crankset after half a year. YMMV.

I'm conflicted.
My titanium frame always looks fresh and when it doesn't a
quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits of
both.

Agree with Andrew. I replaced my lovely Waterford with a Ti
Ritchey Breakaway. Chose Ti mostly for durability of finish, but
its aesthetics pale in comparison.

Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 17:15:05 UTC+1 schreef Ted Heise:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:21:49 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/16/2021 2:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zaterdag 16 januari 2021 om 00:41:13 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/15/2021 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not
very popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert
o Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance
of the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not
correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me
with a bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one
year on RtR. When they built the frame, I had them
shorten the stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have
always wondered of that was a factor. Seems unlikely,
but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me
the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a
"sport" rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm
without. Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each
drawn from scratch, custom to rider requirements
including material and tube gauge. There are no other
quality differences between the two lines- materials,
welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars
are all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late
1997 or early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on
it. The first year with the new round top on the levers. I
bought my 1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short
point lugs) through an internet bike dealer who got frames
and bikes from all over and resold them. I did not buy
directly from Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought,
mine was in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it
was a great shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn
Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red
may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely
BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material
is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame.
Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure
aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel
frame and matching fork.
+1
I like a finish that still look good after a couple of years
of hard use in all conditions. A spray painted steel frame is
not on my list. My clear coated CF Super Record Campagnolo
crankset looks better after 7 years of use then my Dura Ace
crankset after half a year. YMMV.
I'm conflicted.
My titanium frame always looks fresh and when it doesn't a
quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits of
both.
Agree with Andrew. I replaced my lovely Waterford with a Ti
Ritchey Breakaway. Chose Ti mostly for durability of finish, but
its aesthetics pale in comparison.

I like my extremely boring timeless color schemed bikes. The only color allowed is the color of the stuff that is in my water bottles ;-)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tdLnpYHGDHtnivxUA

Lou

On 16/01/2021 15:21, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I'm conflicted. My titanium frame always looks fresh and when it
doesn't a quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits of both.

Heretic.

On 1/16/2021 10:50 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 16/01/2021 15:21, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I'm conflicted. My titanium frame always looks fresh and
when it
doesn't a quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's
boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits
of both.

Heretic.


Guilty.

Guilty of having no coherent ideology; Ti, two shiny black
and one seductive pearly pink folder. My black bikes are
ridden most.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 16/01/2021 18:13, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/16/2021 10:50 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 16/01/2021 15:21, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I'm conflicted. My titanium frame always looks fresh and
when it
doesn't a quick wipe is all it needs. Then again it's
boring. Painted
frames have a different aesthetic and I can see the merits
of both.

Heretic.


Guilty.

Guilty of having no coherent ideology; Ti, two shiny black and one
seductive pearly pink folder. My black bikes are ridden most.

I don't need a Ti frame, I *WANT* a Ti frame!

Fires up Van Nicholas

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:11:21 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/15/2021 4:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)

My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork..

...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford
has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make
standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford
always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal
upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame.
Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size
with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread.
There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I
recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration
because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit
generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make
it up with a somewhat longer stem.

The one thing that Colnago has in spades and that is the fanciest paint jobs in the world using a paint that is very difficult to put permanent scratches into. Trying to duplicate those things I powder coated the frames and then use rattlecan overspray to improve the paint jobs. One suggestion - only do this when it is warm enough for the paint to dry rapidly. For the Colnago it appears that they are using not transfers but actual decals on clear plastic and then clear coating the finished produce too have super strong and lasting art work.

Not sure what you meant with those terms but many Colnago
models are multilayer paint with stencils, not vinyl or
acetate stickers, not waterslides, not film transfers.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19n.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg
Andrew, if you look at the last picture in that series you can see finely printed Colnago on the top tube. This is not stencils nor transfers as far as I can tell. On mine this is the entire length of the top tube. If you look closely you can see a slightly raised edge and you can plainly feel it in a couple of places. So I'm pretty sure that it is a sticker over the top of the final paint they very carefully clear coated to lock it onto the top tube.