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#91
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 5:43:43 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 7:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 10:01:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:49:04 +0700, John B. wrote: Well, certainly there are various "versions" of the Bible and some of the instructions are a bit different. "Thou shall not kill" in some versions and "Thou shall not commit murder" in others for instance New versions appear constantly. The latest is the MEV (Modern English Version) which takes the KJV bible and translates the 17th century idioms and terminology, into modern English. It was finished in 2013. https://modernenglishversion.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English_Version It's the idioms that drive readers nuts. One famous example is from WWII, when a misunderstanding of the phrase "table the motion" brought an important military meeting to a grinding halt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(parliamentary_procedure) That's just one example, and the bible is crammed full of idioms. "Thou shalt no kill" is not sufficient in a court of law. Question arise as to exceptions and killing what? Is it acceptable to slaughter animals for food? Some attempts have been made to clarify such details, usually resulting in a bible that reads like a legal document or history book: https://gnt.bible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_News_Bible Incidentally, here's a vocabulary list extracted from the KJV bible: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.tbsbibles.org/resource/collection/D1B0BDBE-CD9E-4D12-BBDD-138677F98835/Bible-Word-List-and-Reading-Plan.pdf Most of the words and phrases on the list are in dire need of translation to modern terms. Another thing, regarding the Bible is that of translation. As I have lived in a number of non-English speaking countries I have been made aware that literal translations are frequently meaningless, if even possible, and even worse people often use nicknames and phrases that when literally translated are far different in meaning then what is meant by those using them. For example, it is very common, particularly in Bangkok, to hear a man reference "fan phom" which literally translated is "friend me" but actually means "my wife", a somewhat different meaning than the translation. Given that the Jewish holy books weren't originally written in English, or Latin, but were likely translated first into Greek, and then into Latin and then into English the chances of misinterpreting a word or phrase, or even a loyal advocate of one group or another simply inserting a totally new word into his copy seems more than likely. The Torah or "law" handed down to Moses was in Aramaic. Only scholars could read it for centuries. This was eventually translated from several languages into Latin and then the Bible was only available to priests and monks and the like and again, only scholar could read it. During the reformation the Anglo-Saxons wanted a bible that everyone could read and have and at THAT point it was translated into what passed for Saxon under Martin Luther and finally English as England became the colonial power they passed their Protestant Bible to every corner of the globe where native believers then translated it into local languages. The word "engraver" had the origin in reproducing religious texts. Moses' Jehovah couldn't manage writing in Hebrew? Aramaic was a written language and Hebrew was not for many centuries. There were all sorts of "gospels" since like today, people loved to speak of Jesus never having known him. So the Catholic Church had to sort through these gospels and decide which had authority and which did not. And they were all translated into Latin. https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." -- Cheers, John B. |
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#92
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:11:04 +0700, John B.
wrote: https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." More on Old Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet Compare the Old Hebrew characters with the Hebrew characters in the right hand column. A few a close, but most are very different. Aramaic is the base alphabet for most of the middle eastern languages. Notice on the chart that the Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew characters are fairly similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet#Letters So, why are some characters radically different while others seem to copied from older character sets? What happened is that the spoken languages are not necessarily written in the written language of the same name. Sometimes, the spoken language for a region is a common language, such as Aramaic was in biblical times. Everyone spoke Aramaic, but wrote it in a variety of character sets. Sometimes, either or both the language and character set is specific to the region, trade, politics, status, etc. For example, the Emperor of Japan during WWII had a very different spoke language than what was spoken by the common people. That was to isolate the Emperor from the common people. That worked well until the Emperor Hirohito had to give his famous "Bear the Unbearable" speech near the end of WWII. It went out over loudspeakers and radio to all over Japan. Nobody could understand what he was saying, so it had to be repeated by someone else in the language of the common people. This kind to stratification was very common in biblical times. The priesthood had their own language and character set. The various merchants all spoke Aramaic, but used the written language familiar to those with whom they were trading. Something similar happened with the decoding of the Rosetta Stone. It was the same proclamation written in Egyptian hieroglyphs, Coptic, and Greek. Greek and Coptic could be read, but not the hieroglyphics. What Champollion determined was that hieroglyphs could be read just like Latin characters, where each symbol represents a sound in spoken Egyptian. By substituting the similar Coptic equivalents for the hieroglyphs, Egyptian could be read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone#Reading_the_Rosetta_Stone If you go to Hawaii, they say Hawaiian place names in the native Hawaiian spoken language, but since there wasn't a written language, they just borrowed the Latin characters and pronunciation. Same thing in biblical times. Language and characters were fairly independent. Modern Hebrew is also quite different from biblical Hebrew. When the Zionist movement setup the framework for what was eventually to become Israel, they had a problem with the language. Hebrew was the language of the bible and was not easily converted to something that could be used for everyday commerce. For example, it has very few technical terms. In an effort to find a quick fix, Theodor Hertzl wanted to use Yiddish, which is mediaeval German, as the official language of Israel. Yiddish uses the written Hebrew alphabet, but is spoken in German. It's much like Polish and Russian are fairly similar spoken languages, but Polish is written using Latin characters, while Russian uses Cyrillic (Greek) characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5MtF70xe8 Anyway, I hope this helps disconnect spoken and written languages. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#93
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:11:04 +0700, John B. wrote: https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." More on Old Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet Compare the Old Hebrew characters with the Hebrew characters in the right hand column. A few a close, but most are very different. Aramaic is the base alphabet for most of the middle eastern languages. Notice on the chart that the Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew characters are fairly similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet#Letters So, why are some characters radically different while others seem to copied from older character sets? What happened is that the spoken languages are not necessarily written in the written language of the same name. Sometimes, the spoken language for a region is a common language, such as Aramaic was in biblical times. Everyone spoke Aramaic, but wrote it in a variety of character sets. Sometimes, either or both the language and character set is specific to the region, trade, politics, status, etc. For example, the Emperor of Japan during WWII had a very different spoke language than what was spoken by the common people. That was to isolate the Emperor from the common people. That worked well until the Emperor Hirohito had to give his famous "Bear the Unbearable" speech near the end of WWII. It went out over loudspeakers and radio to all over Japan. Nobody could understand what he was saying, so it had to be repeated by someone else in the language of the common people. This kind to stratification was very common in biblical times. The priesthood had their own language and character set. The various merchants all spoke Aramaic, but used the written language familiar to those with whom they were trading. Something similar happened with the decoding of the Rosetta Stone. It was the same proclamation written in Egyptian hieroglyphs, Coptic, and Greek. Greek and Coptic could be read, but not the hieroglyphics. What Champollion determined was that hieroglyphs could be read just like Latin characters, where each symbol represents a sound in spoken Egyptian. By substituting the similar Coptic equivalents for the hieroglyphs, Egyptian could be read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone#Reading_the_Rosetta_Stone If you go to Hawaii, they say Hawaiian place names in the native Hawaiian spoken language, but since there wasn't a written language, they just borrowed the Latin characters and pronunciation. Same thing in biblical times. Language and characters were fairly independent. Modern Hebrew is also quite different from biblical Hebrew. When the Zionist movement setup the framework for what was eventually to become Israel, they had a problem with the language. Hebrew was the language of the bible and was not easily converted to something that could be used for everyday commerce. For example, it has very few technical terms. In an effort to find a quick fix, Theodor Hertzl wanted to use Yiddish, which is mediaeval German, as the official language of Israel. Yiddish uses the written Hebrew alphabet, but is spoken in German. It's much like Polish and Russian are fairly similar spoken languages, but Polish is written using Latin characters, while Russian uses Cyrillic (Greek) characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5MtF70xe8 Anyway, I hope this helps disconnect spoken and written languages. Thanks, Jeff. Very informative. I don’t speak it, but Yiddish seems to me to be the language that has words for things that other languages wished they had words for. |
#94
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:20:52 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:11:04 +0700, John B. wrote: https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." More on Old Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet Compare the Old Hebrew characters with the Hebrew characters in the right hand column. A few a close, but most are very different. Aramaic is the base alphabet for most of the middle eastern languages. Notice on the chart that the Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew characters are fairly similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet#Letters So, why are some characters radically different while others seem to copied from older character sets? What happened is that the spoken languages are not necessarily written in the written language of the same name. Sometimes, the spoken language for a region is a common language, such as Aramaic was in biblical times. Everyone spoke Aramaic, but wrote it in a variety of character sets. Sometimes, either or both the language and character set is specific to the region, trade, politics, status, etc. For example, the Emperor of Japan during WWII had a very different spoke language than what was spoken by the common people. That was to isolate the Emperor from the common people. That worked well until the Emperor Hirohito had to give his famous "Bear the Unbearable" speech near the end of WWII. It went out over loudspeakers and radio to all over Japan. Nobody could understand what he was saying, so it had to be repeated by someone else in the language of the common people. I'm being picky here but the language spoken by Emperor Hirohito was not a "different language" it was simply a very ornate and honorific version of the Japanese language, and, as you say, was rather difficult for the "common people" to understand. But the Japanese use several ways of talking and the words which are used basically, indicate the differences in social level between the speaker and the spoken to. It is quite easy, for example, to insult someone by simply leaving out an honorific or using a lower class word. -- Cheers, John B. |
#95
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:18:17 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: Thanks, Jeff. Very informative. Y'er welcome. I don’t speak it, but Yiddish seems to me to be the language that has words for things that other languages wished they had words for. Yep. Languages tend to go into more detail describing things with which the culture is most familiar. The classic example is that Eskimos allegedly have 50 words for "snow". https://readable.com/blog/do-inuits-really-have-50-words-for-snow/ The real number is more like 8 names, but I'll pretend that I didn't read that. Similarly, Yiddish has even more names for "fools". https://www.aish.com/j/fs/48929367.html I could probably add a few more. Incidentally, my parents were Polish. After WWII, they ended up in Germany where I was born. When I was 5, the family emigrated to the USA and eventually settled in Los Angeles. I initially spoke German. My parents continued to speak Polish, so I learned some Polish. Some family friends spoke Russian, so I learned a little Russian. I attended a school where instruction was in Yiddish but also taught some Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Workers_Circle Lingua Fracta was the order of the day. I thought nothing of assembling a sentence from 4 different languages. 1953 was the trailing end of McCarthyism and the Red Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism If someone spoke any language other than English, or did not act like a genuine American, they were labeled a Communist. My parents and friends were seriously worried about being "denounced" and deported back to Europe. It took a while for them to realize that this was not the way America operated. Meanwhile paranoia was the order of the day. Therefore, I was encouraged to only speak English in public, handle my knife and fork in the American manner, and try to look like an American. My parents also bought two books on etiquette (by Amy Vanderbilt and Emily Post) and tried to use it as a guide for setting the dinner table. It was quite a surprise when we discovered that Americans didn't eat like that. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#96
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:34:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:58:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/14/2021 6:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I suspect that the next translation of the bible will be into text message abbreviations and acronyms, which is the common language of todays youth: https://www.webopedia.com/reference/text-message-abbreviations/ Long ago I read a science fiction novel (probably by Heinlein) that featured some sort of secret society. As I recall, to be inducted one needed a high degree of intelligence; but once inducted, trainees learned a new language, one that was heavily abbreviated. The claim was that we think by internal use of language, so learning a language whose information was very dense (in terms of ideas per syllable) allowed much faster processing of data - i.e. faster and more efficient thinking. I read the same story, but can't recall the name or author. I did some random Googling for clues, but can't recall enough of the story to construct a working key word search. As I vaguely recall, my first thoughts were that high speed thinking was of marginal value because it also accelerates one's rate of making mistakes and reduces the available time to consider side effects and "what can go wrong" thoughts after the high speed decisions are reached. While one can probably learn to communicate at high speeds, there's no guarantee that they will also think at high speeds. Found it! It's _Gulf_ by Robert A. Heinlein. Wikipedia says that the story was written after the table of contents for the magazine was composed, which explains why it fits its title very loosely. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#97
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 23:06:03 -0500, Joy Beeson
wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:34:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:58:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/14/2021 6:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I suspect that the next translation of the bible will be into text message abbreviations and acronyms, which is the common language of todays youth: https://www.webopedia.com/reference/text-message-abbreviations/ Long ago I read a science fiction novel (probably by Heinlein) that featured some sort of secret society. As I recall, to be inducted one needed a high degree of intelligence; but once inducted, trainees learned a new language, one that was heavily abbreviated. The claim was that we think by internal use of language, so learning a language whose information was very dense (in terms of ideas per syllable) allowed much faster processing of data - i.e. faster and more efficient thinking. I read the same story, but can't recall the name or author. I did some random Googling for clues, but can't recall enough of the story to construct a working key word search. As I vaguely recall, my first thoughts were that high speed thinking was of marginal value because it also accelerates one's rate of making mistakes and reduces the available time to consider side effects and "what can go wrong" thoughts after the high speed decisions are reached. While one can probably learn to communicate at high speeds, there's no guarantee that they will also think at high speeds. Found it! It's _Gulf_ by Robert A. Heinlein. Wikipedia says that the story was written after the table of contents for the magazine was composed, which explains why it fits its title very loosely. Thank you. I would never have recognized the story by that title. It was a part of a collection titled "Assignment in Eternity" which is where I read "Gulf": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assignment_in_Eternity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella) The story invokes the notions of the General Semantics of Alfred Korzybski and the work of Samuel Renshaw to explain the nature of thought and how people could be trained to think more rapidly and accurately. I couldn't find a free PDF or eBook download. I'll try again tomorrow. Speedtalk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedtalk -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#98
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On 1/15/2021 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:20:52 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:11:04 +0700, John B. wrote: https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." More on Old Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet Compare the Old Hebrew characters with the Hebrew characters in the right hand column. A few a close, but most are very different. Aramaic is the base alphabet for most of the middle eastern languages. Notice on the chart that the Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew characters are fairly similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet#Letters So, why are some characters radically different while others seem to copied from older character sets? What happened is that the spoken languages are not necessarily written in the written language of the same name. Sometimes, the spoken language for a region is a common language, such as Aramaic was in biblical times. Everyone spoke Aramaic, but wrote it in a variety of character sets. Sometimes, either or both the language and character set is specific to the region, trade, politics, status, etc. For example, the Emperor of Japan during WWII had a very different spoke language than what was spoken by the common people. That was to isolate the Emperor from the common people. That worked well until the Emperor Hirohito had to give his famous "Bear the Unbearable" speech near the end of WWII. It went out over loudspeakers and radio to all over Japan. Nobody could understand what he was saying, so it had to be repeated by someone else in the language of the common people. I'm being picky here but the language spoken by Emperor Hirohito was not a "different language" it was simply a very ornate and honorific version of the Japanese language, and, as you say, was rather difficult for the "common people" to understand. But the Japanese use several ways of talking and the words which are used basically, indicate the differences in social level between the speaker and the spoken to. It is quite easy, for example, to insult someone by simply leaving out an honorific or using a lower class word. As with English and AFAIK other languages. And languages are dynamic. In the 1970s a sansei girlfriend, who learned Japanese from her family (who arrived here before The Great War) visited Japan. Her old-timey stilted conversation was a real impediment. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#99
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On 1/15/2021 11:06 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:34:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:58:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/14/2021 6:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I suspect that the next translation of the bible will be into text message abbreviations and acronyms, which is the common language of todays youth: https://www.webopedia.com/reference/text-message-abbreviations/ Long ago I read a science fiction novel (probably by Heinlein) that featured some sort of secret society. As I recall, to be inducted one needed a high degree of intelligence; but once inducted, trainees learned a new language, one that was heavily abbreviated. The claim was that we think by internal use of language, so learning a language whose information was very dense (in terms of ideas per syllable) allowed much faster processing of data - i.e. faster and more efficient thinking. I read the same story, but can't recall the name or author. I did some random Googling for clues, but can't recall enough of the story to construct a working key word search. As I vaguely recall, my first thoughts were that high speed thinking was of marginal value because it also accelerates one's rate of making mistakes and reduces the available time to consider side effects and "what can go wrong" thoughts after the high speed decisions are reached. While one can probably learn to communicate at high speeds, there's no guarantee that they will also think at high speeds. Found it! It's _Gulf_ by Robert A. Heinlein. Wow. I'm impressed you found it! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#100
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Does Slow Johnny still pull the wings off flies
On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 8:41:18 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/15/2021 8:35 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:20:52 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:11:04 +0700, John B. wrote: https://patternsofevidence.com/2019/...irst-alphabet/ "the first Hebrew writing is called “Old Hebrew” or “Paleo-Hebrew.” This is known from inscriptions found from about 900 BC in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of many of Judah’s inhabitants to Babylon around 586 BC." More on Old Hebrew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet Compare the Old Hebrew characters with the Hebrew characters in the right hand column. A few a close, but most are very different. Aramaic is the base alphabet for most of the middle eastern languages. Notice on the chart that the Imperial Aramaic and Hebrew characters are fairly similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet#Letters So, why are some characters radically different while others seem to copied from older character sets? What happened is that the spoken languages are not necessarily written in the written language of the same name. Sometimes, the spoken language for a region is a common language, such as Aramaic was in biblical times. Everyone spoke Aramaic, but wrote it in a variety of character sets. Sometimes, either or both the language and character set is specific to the region, trade, politics, status, etc. For example, the Emperor of Japan during WWII had a very different spoke language than what was spoken by the common people. That was to isolate the Emperor from the common people. That worked well until the Emperor Hirohito had to give his famous "Bear the Unbearable" speech near the end of WWII. It went out over loudspeakers and radio to all over Japan. Nobody could understand what he was saying, so it had to be repeated by someone else in the language of the common people. I'm being picky here but the language spoken by Emperor Hirohito was not a "different language" it was simply a very ornate and honorific version of the Japanese language, and, as you say, was rather difficult for the "common people" to understand. But the Japanese use several ways of talking and the words which are used basically, indicate the differences in social level between the speaker and the spoken to. It is quite easy, for example, to insult someone by simply leaving out an honorific or using a lower class word. As with English and AFAIK other languages. And languages are dynamic. In the 1970s a sansei girlfriend, who learned Japanese from her family (who arrived here before The Great War) visited Japan. Her old-timey stilted conversation was a real impediment. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 My 1892 dictionary lists "awful" as being full of awe. It's interesting how languages or even just words change meanings. Gai is another great example.. Then there was the great vowel shift in the English language which is why Olde English is no so hard to read. Cheers |
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