Waterford Bicycles

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport" rather than full race model.

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 4:05:12 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:26:07 PM UTC, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
I really wouldn't want to speculate on the causes of shimmy or for that matter to have my livelihood depend on tracking it down. I have in mind that when (by extension from Chalo recommending Utopia-velo's Kranich to me) I was shopping the the German baukasten to see what was available, I came across a case of shimmy down an Alpine mountain (!) in the other German top-dog, Patria. It was apparently caused by fitting Big Apples and did them a lot of commercial harm before it was rectified. Now, despite what you may have heard about the hemi-heads I developed when I was an auto racer, my specialty was actually suspensions, but for the life of me I could not see precisely how a Big Apple -- a truly superior tyre -- could cause a shimmy on a straight, long wheelbase bike with plenty of its own damping (as possessed by every proper touring bike not designed by some idiot burdened with a roadie legacy). "Who knows?" Indeed.
.
Andre Jute
PS I was about to say that Jobst Brandt mentioned the possibility of an harmonic progression punishing a designer who had done nothing wrong, when my eye fell on Andrew Muzi' s note to that effect, complete with specific reference. I would add that I enjoyed my time designing ultra-fidelity loudspeaker enclosures quite as much as working on suspensions, and for the same reason, that beyond the tricky non-linearics lies art.
Professionally Jobst was pretty much an expert but personally he would delve into the realm of asshat.

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:44:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
** AMuzi wrote:
* On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the
Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as
well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing
model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing,
sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all
custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

* That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
* Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years.* It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR.* When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor.* Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often, can occur when
frame is straight and headset is adjusted properly. See his notes at #8
H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/

I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce the tendency to
shimmy, other things being equal. Less length = more stiffness, so a
higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that site: "The longer
the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I can't say if
that's true. I have a roller bearing headset only on my Cannondale
touring bike, but that bike is so rigid that shimmy is probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in a very
flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the bike with it. My
current bag is very rigid and probably adds enough inertia to the
steering to lessen any shimmy tendencies even further.

Back in the day a steering shimmy was, perhaps not common, but not an
unknown phenomena with motorcycles. In almost every case replacing
front suspension parts to eliminate excessive play cured the problem.
I wonder how much wheel shimmy with bicycles is due to loose wheel or
head bearings.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/14/2021 5:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
  AMuzi wrote:
 On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that
I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon
fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would
like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be
obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own
body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will
see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds
but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last
forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is
not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be
at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

 That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
 Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad
case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When
they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube
dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often,
can occur when frame is straight and headset is adjusted
properly. See his notes at #8 H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/

I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce the
tendency to shimmy, other things being equal. Less length =
more stiffness, so a higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that site:
"The longer the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater
the tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I
can't say if that's true. I have a roller bearing headset
only on my Cannondale touring bike, but that bike is so
rigid that shimmy is probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in a
very flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the
bike with it. My current bag is very rigid and probably adds
enough inertia to the steering to lessen any shimmy
tendencies even further.


IMHO headset style or adjustment (outside of gross failure)
is unrelated to bicycle shimmy.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/14/2021 6:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 10:18:54 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

He's found work better suited to his skills:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...edward-schwinn

Somehow you always have access to things that I get blocked out of.


For RBT links, I'm almost always looking for a web reference
to something I already know. I searched 'ed schwinn' and
'cheese'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport" rather than full race model.


Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including
material and tube gauge. There are no other quality
differences between the two lines- materials, welders, paint
all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars
are all TIG.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/14/2021 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:

Back in the day a steering shimmy was, perhaps not common, but not an
unknown phenomena with motorcycles. In almost every case replacing
front suspension parts to eliminate excessive play cured the problem.
I wonder how much wheel shimmy with bicycles is due to loose wheel or
head bearings.

Shimmy can be very weird, very hard to diagnose.

My motorcycle is a 1972 BMW R75/5, the short wheelbase version
(nicknamed SWB). In 1973 BMW lengthened the wheelbase, adding maybe an
inch to the swing arm. The rumor is that was done to cure the tendency
to get a "tank slapper" - a front end shimmy so violent the handlebars
alternately hit either side of the tank.

There is dispute over the likelihood of this shimmy. I've never
experienced it, and certainly don't want to. It seems fork mounted front
fairings increase the chances (although I used to run one), as do heavy
loads mounted high on a rack protruding behind the seat (which I've
never used).

One guy with a famous BMW website (similar to Sheldon Brown's, in a way)
claims the only cure is super precise alignment of the two fork tubes,
to totally eliminate all front fork stiction; and that any SWB owner is
foolish to skip this tedious procedure. Others say they've never
bothered with that, have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles and had
no problems.

OTOH, as Andrew knows, I once owned a 1966 Corvair Corsa. In 1973 I sold
it cheap because it had developed an intermittent violent shimmy at
moderate speeds (maybe 50 mph) that neither I nor a couple suspension
shops were able to diagnose.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:27:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2021 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:

Back in the day a steering shimmy was, perhaps not common, but not an
unknown phenomena with motorcycles. In almost every case replacing
front suspension parts to eliminate excessive play cured the problem.
I wonder how much wheel shimmy with bicycles is due to loose wheel or
head bearings.

Shimmy can be very weird, very hard to diagnose.

My motorcycle is a 1972 BMW R75/5, the short wheelbase version
(nicknamed SWB). In 1973 BMW lengthened the wheelbase, adding maybe an
inch to the swing arm. The rumor is that was done to cure the tendency
to get a "tank slapper" - a front end shimmy so violent the handlebars
alternately hit either side of the tank.

There is dispute over the likelihood of this shimmy. I've never
experienced it, and certainly don't want to. It seems fork mounted front
fairings increase the chances (although I used to run one), as do heavy
loads mounted high on a rack protruding behind the seat (which I've
never used).

One guy with a famous BMW website (similar to Sheldon Brown's, in a way)
claims the only cure is super precise alignment of the two fork tubes,
to totally eliminate all front fork stiction; and that any SWB owner is
foolish to skip this tedious procedure. Others say they've never
bothered with that, have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles and had
no problems.

OTOH, as Andrew knows, I once owned a 1966 Corvair Corsa. In 1973 I sold
it cheap because it had developed an intermittent violent shimmy at
moderate speeds (maybe 50 mph) that neither I nor a couple suspension
shops were able to diagnose.

I can't comment on BMW's as the only one I ever rode was an old single
cylinder model and that was a "just around the block" sort of test
ride.

But car front wheel shimmy was almost always cured by replacing all
the suspension bushings and aligning the wheels.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport" rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including
material and tube gauge. There are no other quality
differences between the two lines- materials, welders, paint
all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars
are all TIG.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my 1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs) through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from Waterford. My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame. Fortunately for me their 58cm standard sizing is the exact same custom size I would order if I was getting a custom frame. I'd just hand the Waterford 58cm standard frame sizes to the custom builder and say build it exactly this size.

Op vrijdag 15 januari 2021 om 00:44:45 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the
Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as
well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing
model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing,
sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all
custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often, can occur when
frame is straight and headset is adjusted properly. See his notes at #8
H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/
I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce the tendency to
shimmy, other things being equal. Less length = more stiffness, so a
higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that site: "The longer
the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I can't say if
that's true. I have a roller bearing headset only on my Cannondale
touring bike, but that bike is so rigid that shimmy is probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in a very
flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the bike with it. My
current bag is very rigid and probably adds enough inertia to the
steering to lessen any shimmy tendencies even further.


--
- Frank Krygowski

When I was a paperboy I used a bicycle with a step through frame because it was easy to get off and on the bike (we don't throw papers on the peoples lawn). With a lot of newspapers in the panniers I could introduce a shimmy every time by riding no hands and wack my handlebars. I did that for fun to see how long I would dare riding no hands with a shimmy.

Lou