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Bike shops, rules, principles and law



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 15th 21, 03:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ads
  #2  
Old January 15th 21, 04:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 6:38:52 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.


BTW, in the US, the score is probably 80/20 for insurers on BI coverage for COVID shut-downs -- and higher for insurers who issued policies with virus exclusions. I'm representing insurers in a couple of class actions and have been keeping score. I'm waiting for an opinion out of the Oregon USDC.

The ISO standard BI endorsement was intended to provide coverage for lost cash flow when your business burns down or when it is shut down by government authority because your neighbor's business burned down (e.g. closed business with crime tape). It is not free-floating coverage for business interruption due to any cause, although you can buy those policies.

Different states interpret insurance policies differently. There are also state statutes that may affect the interpretation of insurance policies. The most pro-consumer approach is the so-called "reasonable expectations" doctrine for interpreting policies -- hmmm, what would a reasonable consumer believe the policy covers? Answer: everything. Oregon has a very rational approach that is probably the national standard: give effect to the plain language of the policy. If a term is undefined, give it its ordinary meaning (typically dictionary definition). If the term is still ambiguous, look to the broader context of the policy to see if the ambiguity can be resolved. If not, construe it in favor of coverage. It's still consumer protection, but at least it is more closely tied to the actual language of the policy.

Speaking of rewriting polies, there are a butt-load of state COVID orders affecting the renewal and cancellation of policies, and there was talk of a national statute -- in a nation with the McCarran Ferguson Act -- basically mandating COVID BI coverage post hoc (with no corresponding premium payment), but that went nowhere. It's just like no-eviction orders, which are rewriting private lease agreements. The loss is always being shifted up. That can only go so far when it comes to adjusting private contracts -- but its amazing how far it can go, even under the Contracts Clause. https://constitution.congress.gov/br...artI_S10_C1_5/

Insurance companies went through this before with the SARS epidemic, and the Insurance Services Office (ISO) (private company that writes policies and provides premium rating data) came up with the virus exclusion. https://tinyurl.com/y49mzosr Your policy probably has one of these. Most of my insurance clients use these, but not all, including the client in the class action.

I have no idea what the standard policies look like in the UK (and I'm not going to learn unless someone pays me). All I see are Lloyds and London Market excess policies (and reinsurance contracts), and they're arcane and sometimes less than a page (following form to the primary) -- and provide a zillion in excess coverage. I know some UK coverage law, but its all in the maritime field, and I don't know what rules they apply to standard property policies and BI endorsements. My guess is the UK Supreme Court applied some version of the "reasonable expectations" doctrine to a poorly worded policy and created coverage. The policies probably don't have virus exclusions. It's hard to know, but you can find coverage through creative interpretation.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #3  
Old January 15th 21, 05:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On 1/15/2021 6:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme court' scheme,
this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/


Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have thoughts to
offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not purchase flood
insurance is just out.Â* Which is as it should be IMHO.Â* The damage looks
to me from regulatory action, not the chinese weapon itself.Â* I can't
see how a contract[1] could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But
I'm open to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent contract in
the class.


I suspect that future business interruption policies will expand the
clause that includes "Acts of God, Natural Disasters, War, etc." to
include pandemics and acts of Republicans.
  #4  
Old January 15th 21, 11:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 08:02:06 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/15/2021 6:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme court' scheme,
this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/


Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have thoughts to
offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not purchase flood
insurance is just out.* Which is as it should be IMHO.* The damage looks
to me from regulatory action, not the chinese weapon itself.* I can't
see how a contract[1] could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But
I'm open to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent contract in
the class.


I suspect that future business interruption policies will expand the
clause that includes "Acts of God, Natural Disasters, War, etc." to
include pandemics and acts of Republicans.


I'm surprised that they don't now. 60 years ago I worked for a company
that sub-contracted to international oil companies and every one of
the contracts we signed with those companies had an "act of God"
clause.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #5  
Old January 16th 21, 12:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.


It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.

  #6  
Old January 17th 21, 01:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:49:54 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.

It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.

I think that we're in agreement. A very large number of the Democrats employed or had intimate relations with what the DHS called "spies" Biden, his brother and his son all were being paid off by China in LARGE amounts of capital. (I think it was said that a more or less penniless Biden started living in $20 Million homes from the first time he was elected. While the attention was being focused on Hunter Biden's job for a Ukrainian energy company why was Nancy Pelosi's son completely ignored? He was in the same sort of position. How was it that Paul Sr., Nancy's husband was getting no-bid government contracts in areas in which he had no experience nor expertise?

The normal way in which China bribes people is through their family members so that there's no direct link from the Chinese government to the bribed official.
  #7  
Old January 17th 21, 02:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:56:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:49:54 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.

It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.

I think that we're in agreement. A very large number of the Democrats employed or had intimate relations with what the DHS called "spies" Biden, his brother and his son all were being paid off by China in LARGE amounts of capital. (I think it was said that a more or less penniless Biden started living in $20 Million homes from the first time he was elected. While the attention was being focused on Hunter Biden's job for a Ukrainian energy company why was Nancy Pelosi's son completely ignored? He was in the same sort of position. How was it that Paul Sr., Nancy's husband was getting no-bid government contracts in areas in which he had no experience nor expertise?

The normal way in which China bribes people is through their family members so that there's no direct link from the Chinese government to the bribed official.


Tommy boy, how would you know "The normal way in which China bribes
people"? Have you been to China? Do you speak Chinese (any dialect)?
Where do you get your brilliant insights into Chinese policy?

Or is this just another one of your bizarre fantasies?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #8  
Old January 17th 21, 04:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 5:55:30 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:56:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:49:54 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.
It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.

I think that we're in agreement. A very large number of the Democrats employed or had intimate relations with what the DHS called "spies" Biden, his brother and his son all were being paid off by China in LARGE amounts of capital. (I think it was said that a more or less penniless Biden started living in $20 Million homes from the first time he was elected. While the attention was being focused on Hunter Biden's job for a Ukrainian energy company why was Nancy Pelosi's son completely ignored? He was in the same sort of position. How was it that Paul Sr., Nancy's husband was getting no-bid government contracts in areas in which he had no experience nor expertise?

The normal way in which China bribes people is through their family members so that there's no direct link from the Chinese government to the bribed official.

Tommy boy, how would you know "The normal way in which China bribes
people"? Have you been to China? Do you speak Chinese (any dialect)?
Where do you get your brilliant insights into Chinese policy?

Or is this just another one of your bizarre fantasies?


The way I know things is that my best friend who saved my life was an NCIS team leader who spent 20 years hunting Chinese spies in the military.
  #9  
Old January 18th 21, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 07:35:23 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 5:55:30 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:56:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:49:54 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.
It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.
I think that we're in agreement. A very large number of the Democrats employed or had intimate relations with what the DHS called "spies" Biden, his brother and his son all were being paid off by China in LARGE amounts of capital. (I think it was said that a more or less penniless Biden started living in $20 Million homes from the first time he was elected. While the attention was being focused on Hunter Biden's job for a Ukrainian energy company why was Nancy Pelosi's son completely ignored? He was in the same sort of position. How was it that Paul Sr., Nancy's husband was getting no-bid government contracts in areas in which he had no experience nor expertise?

The normal way in which China bribes people is through their family members so that there's no direct link from the Chinese government to the bribed official.

Tommy boy, how would you know "The normal way in which China bribes
people"? Have you been to China? Do you speak Chinese (any dialect)?
Where do you get your brilliant insights into Chinese policy?

Or is this just another one of your bizarre fantasies?


The way I know things is that my best friend who saved my life was an NCIS team leader who spent 20 years hunting Chinese spies in the military.


Tommy, Tommy! Calm down. Of course you know all them there secret
guys.

Take your medicine before posting as your frantic efforts to show the
world how wonderful you are (way down deep inside) is sort of fraying
at the edges.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #10  
Old January 18th 21, 08:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Bike shops, rules, principles and law

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 3:09:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 07:35:23 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 5:55:30 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:56:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:49:54 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Leaving aside my reservations on the newish UK 'supreme
court' scheme, this raises some very large questions:

https://cyclingindustry.news/supreme...-interruption/

Hoping for comment from Mr Beattie, and all of you who have
thoughts to offer.

In my understanding, a business flooded which did not
purchase flood insurance is just out. Which is as it should
be IMHO. The damage looks to me from regulatory action, not
the chinese weapon itself. I can't see how a contract[1]
could have an exclusion removed ex post facto. But I'm open
to other ideas.

[1] We do not of course know the language of every pertinent
contract in the class.
It’s hard for me to reply to you when you reference the Chinese weapon.
Most people I know call it Trump’s virus.
But aside from that, I’m worried about most of the small businesses that we
depend on. LBS and restaurants in particular.
I think that we're in agreement. A very large number of the Democrats employed or had intimate relations with what the DHS called "spies" Biden, his brother and his son all were being paid off by China in LARGE amounts of capital. (I think it was said that a more or less penniless Biden started living in $20 Million homes from the first time he was elected. While the attention was being focused on Hunter Biden's job for a Ukrainian energy company why was Nancy Pelosi's son completely ignored? He was in the same sort of position. How was it that Paul Sr., Nancy's husband was getting no-bid government contracts in areas in which he had no experience nor expertise?

The normal way in which China bribes people is through their family members so that there's no direct link from the Chinese government to the bribed official.
Tommy boy, how would you know "The normal way in which China bribes
people"? Have you been to China? Do you speak Chinese (any dialect)?
Where do you get your brilliant insights into Chinese policy?

Or is this just another one of your bizarre fantasies?


The way I know things is that my best friend who saved my life was an NCIS team leader who spent 20 years hunting Chinese spies in the military.

Tommy, Tommy! Calm down. Of course you know all them there secret
guys.

Take your medicine before posting as your frantic efforts to show the
world how wonderful you are (way down deep inside) is sort of fraying
at the edges.


It certainly appears to be painful to you that people know anything you don't. You probably go down to the market and tell the farmers what the price of their goods are.
 




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