why increasing strength doesn't (automatically) increase power

"DESAY" wrote in message
...

While
high RPMs are attained during the apex of a sprint wouldn't the usage of
near
maximal weight lifting be a neural contributor to perhaps the initial
stage of
acceleration in a sprint, or even a standing start?

See the standing start example at http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc

The reason I ask is because many of the top sprinters do use high
intensity
lifting in their regimen and there must be a good reason other then
because the
"other guy is doing it."

Weight training is a great way to induce hypertrophy. In addition, track
cyclists will often have to initiate a sprint from low, or even zero,
velocity.

Andy Coggan

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:44:39 GMT, " Tim Mullin" wrote:


"DESAY" wrote in message
...

I've read that among the athletes that have used these methods of training
were
Valery Borzov and Ben Johnson who have utilized a 3RM squat load 10
minutes
before winning 100 meter championships.

Johnson was known for using a number of "methods of training." Probably not
the best example....

Dude, don't diss neurological post-tetanic facilitation - it works.


--
Scott Johnson
"Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are
why they only open the top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

On 17 Nov 2003 15:20:37 -0800, (chris) wrote:

Oh, you could, but you sacrifice other areas specific to cycling. In
general the concensus has been 1/2 and 1/2 training leads to 1/2 and
1/2 results. OR, as Andy says, SPECIFICITY, SPECIFICITY, SPECIFICITY.
I just don't think you can surpass specific training with weights.

Depends on your goals. If you want to be the best cyclist possible - don't lift
year round. However if you're a masters racer concerned with bone density and
overall health by all means do.

Its not just cycling, either. A study (I'd have to look it up) was
done a few years back comparing two groups of rowers - one weight
trainer group, the other an interval/power group. The specific rowing
group surpassed the weight trainers on the erg, but not on the
weights. You tell what you would do lift weights or row?

Lift weights, because it's fun. Racing is a different kind of fun, more of a
giant prolonged adrenalin rush.


--
Scott Johnson
"Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are
why they only open the top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

"DESAY" wrote in message
...

I've read that among the athletes that have used these methods of training
were
Valery Borzov and Ben Johnson who have utilized a 3RM squat load 10
minutes
before winning 100 meter championships.

Johnson was known for using a number of "methods of training." Probably not
the best example....

"Andy Coggan" wrote in message hlink.net...
Since this comes up over and over and over again on multiple forums, I
thought I'd try to clear up some of the confusion:

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc/id4.html

Ones ability to ride at high velocities for long periods of time is a
function of VO2max, lactate threshold and economy (efficiency). Since
the forces required to reach VO2max are well below those for maximal
force and strength requirements, strength is not considered to be an
important part of endurance training.

TT winners are defined by the above aerobic cycling abilities, however
a road race has many different demands and strength could be deemed a
limiting factor in producing the power required to win a sprint or to
successfully "jump", attack or counter attack.

So I think the real question is in regard to the road or aerobic
athlete (as apposed to match/track sprinter) is whether weight
training that includes specific training adaptations are effective in
improving the maximal force and strength requirements for sprinting
and attacking or whether this can be more effectively achieved by on
the bike training.

As a side issue one area where I think strength at lactate threshold
may be a limiting factor could be in the race Paris-Roubaix. When
riding hard on the pave the oxygen carrying capacity is the limiting
factor of performance, however the top riders who would be outputting
400-500 watts on the pave tend to pedal a bigger gear with a lower
cadence – maybe the demands of riding the pave as opposed to a smooth
road require a somewhat lower cadence. This means that they require
more strength at each revolution and a greater muscle contraction.
This might somewhat explain why the Paris-Roubaix winners tend to be
bigger men and are regarded as "strong" men.

"Top Sirloin" wrote in message
...

Dude, don't diss neurological post-tetanic facilitation - it works.

Dude, Johnson didn't get his medal yanked for using neurological
post-tetanic facilitation. Steriods work, too. Using Johnson as an example
of the success of anything other than _Better Living Through Chemistry_ is
folly.

(DESAY) wrote in message ...
I would suggest that the specific
nature of this weight/strength training would lead to both a
hypertropic response and neural adaptation that benefits an increase
in power by virtue of an increase in strength during the pedal stroke.

The former (hypertrophy), but not the latter (neural adaptation), unless
joint angular velocities were also similar to those encountered when
pedaling. (Of course, if they were, then you wouldn't be lifting heavy
weights, you'd be sprinting.)

Andy Coggan

I never thought of sprinting as a continuous synchronization of power output,
but rather a disruptive diverse array of force production on the pedals. While
high RPMs are attained during the apex of a sprint wouldn't the usage of near
maximal weight lifting be a neural contributor to perhaps the initial stage of
acceleration in a sprint, or even a standing start?

The reason I ask is because many of the top sprinters do use high intensity
lifting in their regimen and there must be a good reason other then because the
"other guy is doing it."


Many Thanks
Larry D

While I'm sure there's someone out there who'll either try to quantify
it, or someone else who'll tell me I'm wrong, I'll give you my ideas
behind why sprinters do weight work, AND why strength doesn't
necessarily result in power.

It's all about the 'weakest link in the chain' principle.

If you can't turn the pedals smoothly and with force throughout the
pedal stroke, it won't matter how strong you are. You need to be able
to apply the strength you have.

And, it really doesn't matter how smooth you are or how effectively
you can apply what strength you have, if that strength doesn't amount
to squat (pardon the pun). If you need 2000 watts of power to
accelerate with the best of the sprinters, it really doesn't matter
how smooth you are if you can only muster enough strength to generate
1000 watts.

Since the power demands of sprinting, especially track sprinting, are
so great the necessity for strength is more apparent. The power
demands for sustained speed are not so great and can be accomplished
often with almost no significant absolute strength.

Scott

In article , DESAY
wrote:

I never thought of sprinting as a continuous synchronization of power output,
but rather a disruptive diverse array of force production on the pedals.
While
high RPMs are attained during the apex of a sprint wouldn't the usage of near
maximal weight lifting be a neural contributor to perhaps the initial stage of
acceleration in a sprint, or even a standing start?

As you say, from about 40 rpm's to about 90+ rpm's a sprint is mostly a
series of pushing more or less straight down on the pedals with high
force, but if that force is averaged out over one or more pedal strokes
or recorded (and averaged) only once per half second (like Andy has
done in his article) the (actual) forces applied appear smaller, e.g.
400 pounds of force applied for one-third of a pedal stroke doesn't
look like much when it's averaged over a whole pedal stroke or for a
half second. Sprinters are often known for their uneven application of
force during a pedal stroke, a.k.a. "stompers". A standing start or low
rpm acceleration has much more evenly-distributed forces around the
pedal stroke when it's being done right.

Some of the things I came across involving max lifting and acute CNS responses
are as follows:

(Poliquin, 1996) 1/6 Principle: Based on the neurological post-tetanic
facilitation phenomenon, which in essence shows that if you do a 6RM effort
load within minutes of doing a 1RM set your load at 6RM would be heavier then
if you hadn't used the 1RM.

Siff & Verkohoshansky (1993) The "After-Effect Phenomenon" in which it's
decsribed that a tonic effect on the inertness is attained after maximal
intensity dynamic and isometric efforts. The tonic effect can be innervated
as
much as a day later.

My legs feel tired after doing resistance training on them the previous
day but they also feel more alive and ready.

I've read that among the athletes that have used these methods of training
were
Valery Borzov and Ben Johnson who have utilized a 3RM squat load 10 minutes
before winning 100 meter championships.

I noticed (L'equipe) that the French National Team would do their weight
training in the infield of a velodrome. I was curious if they were tying this
methodology into their regimen. A fellow cyclist did happen to a catch a
french
sports segment on TV showcasing the workout regimen of Florian Rousseau. It
showed Rousseau peforming squats followed up by standing starts. I cannot
verify the preciseness of the program as I was getting the info second hand
but
it seemed to be in line with the above literature.

Perhaps they are using squats as a means to warmup and prepare for the
harder effort(s) to come.

-WG

...whether weight
training that includes specific training adaptations are effective in
improving the maximal force and strength requirements for sprinting
and attacking or whether this can be more effectively achieved by on
the bike training.

As pointed out above, maximal force and strength are not required for
sprinting and attacking in road racing, probably the only time these
factors come into play is at very low velocities (like from a stop)
with a big gear (i.e. track sprinters).

"Top Sirloin" wrote in message
...

If you want to be the best cyclist possible - don't lift
year round. However if you're a masters racer concerned with bone density

As a professional in the field of exercise science, I should be the last
person to discourage individuals from exercising. Even so, I think it is
important to recognize that weight training is actually a fairly weak
stimulus for increasing bone mineral density, at least compared to impact
sports and/or drug treatment. So, if you're a master's racer who is *really*
concerned about your bone density (e.g., due to a family history of
osteoporosis, results of a DXA scan), you shouldn't blindly count on weight
training to protect you.

Andy Coggan