Kona Dawk Deelux or Trek Fluid 25?

I am in the market for a new mountain bike. I have narrowed down my choices
to either the Kona Dawg deelux, or the Trek Fluid 25.

http://www.konaworld.com/2k4bikes/2k4_dawg_dlx.cfm
http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/...n/liquid25.jsp

I am 6'2 and weight 200lbs, so I want an all mountian frame rather than a
lighterweight XC. I will not be racing. I will not be taking the bike of
huge drops. I will be riding corss country trails as well as pavement.

On the sirface these bikes appear similar, similar suspension systems,
travel and so on, however I am wondering what set the two apart. Appearances
can be deceiving.

Any advice appretiated, though I would prefer if personal feelings could be
kept to a minimum and the focus be on actual techincal differecnes, and why
those techincal differences should or should not make a difference to me. I
would also be extremely happy if no one tells me to forget both of these
bikes and get a hardtail....

"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message ...
I am in the market for a new mountain bike. I have narrowed down my choices
to either the Kona Dawg deelux, or the Trek Fluid 25.

Well, Jimmy, I know you asked for technical stuff and not opinion, but
you posted to USENET, so I'm gonna give my opinion. So, if that's not
what you want, stop reading here.

I am 6'2 and weight 200lbs, so I want an all mountian frame rather than a
lighterweight XC. I will not be racing. I will not be taking the bike of
huge drops. I will be riding corss country trails as well as pavement.

That's about what I weigh, and I don't think it's outrageous to pick
up a well-made XC bike for a guy of your mass. A Fuel might not make
it for you, or it might. Depends on how easy you are on equipment.
Since you're not doing freeride/hucking, and XC bike might do well for
you.

There are all sorts of bikes out there that will stand up to your
weight, I suspect. How about the Specialized Enduro or FSRxc series?
The Giant VT series? Marin QUAD bikes? Ellsworth ISIS?

On the sirface these bikes appear similar, similar suspension systems,
travel and so on, however I am wondering what set the two apart. Appearances
can be deceiving.

Yes, indeed. I have found that with Kona, unless you can get a great
end-of-year deal, that you are spending a lot for not so much.
House-brand stuff, no-name stuff, etc. Same with Trek, but at least
the price is lower. I used to own a Kona, so I'm not just ****ing on
that choice from nowhere.

If those were your only two choices (and they aren't), then I would
take the Trek, reluctantly, and with huge reservations (assuming you
are forced to pay MSRP on either.)

Any advice appretiated, though I would prefer if personal feelings could be
kept to a minimum and the focus be on actual techincal differecnes, and why
those techincal differences should or should not make a difference to me

My experiences with the Liquid have been document here in the past
week or so. Give Google Groups search a try, using Liquid and Jonesy
as limiting parameters. I do not think, in any way, that the Trek is
suitable for XC on tight, twisty terrain.

Of course, you could get a screaming sweet hardtail for that money.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Now, before you bitch about my post (assuming you've read this far,)
remember that you wrote that "any advice appreciated" thingy right up
there.

Good luck, and don't forget Turner, Ventana, Titus and Yeti id you are
still looking after this post.
--
Jonesy

"Jonesy" wrote in message
om...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...
snip

Of course, you could get a screaming sweet hardtail for that money.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

snip

Good luck, and don't forget Turner, Ventana, Titus and Yeti id you are
still looking after this post.

Good advise.

"Jonesy" wrote in message
om...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...
I am in the market for a new mountain bike. I have narrowed down my
choices
to either the Kona Dawg deelux, or the Trek Fluid 25.

Well, Jimmy, I know you asked for technical stuff and not opinion, but
you posted to USENET, so I'm gonna give my opinion. So, if that's not
what you want, stop reading here.

I am 6'2 and weight 200lbs, so I want an all mountian frame rather than
a
lighterweight XC. I will not be racing. I will not be taking the bike of
huge drops. I will be riding corss country trails as well as pavement.

That's about what I weigh, and I don't think it's outrageous to pick
up a well-made XC bike for a guy of your mass. A Fuel might not make
it for you, or it might. Depends on how easy you are on equipment.
Since you're not doing freeride/hucking, and XC bike might do well for
you.

I did consider a lighter corss country ride for a long time, but I have come
to the conclusion that since I don't plan to race, I would rather have too
much bike than not enough, because I am pretty sure I will want to "try
stuff".


There are all sorts of bikes out there that will stand up to your
weight, I suspect. How about the Specialized Enduro or FSRxc series?
The Giant VT series? Marin QUAD bikes? Ellsworth ISIS?

On the sirface these bikes appear similar, similar suspension systems,
travel and so on, however I am wondering what set the two apart.
Appearances
can be deceiving.

Yes, indeed. I have found that with Kona, unless you can get a great
end-of-year deal, that you are spending a lot for not so much.
House-brand stuff, no-name stuff, etc. Same with Trek, but at least
the price is lower. I used to own a Kona, so I'm not just ****ing on
that choice from nowhere.

If those were your only two choices (and they aren't), then I would
take the Trek, reluctantly, and with huge reservations (assuming you
are forced to pay MSRP on either.)


What are your reservations in regards to the Trek? Similarly, based on the
spec of the Dawg dee-lux, what components does it include that you would not
consider up to snuff?

Any advice appretiated, though I would prefer if personal feelings could
be
kept to a minimum and the focus be on actual techincal differecnes, and
why
those techincal differences should or should not make a difference to me

My experiences with the Liquid have been document here in the past
week or so. Give Google Groups search a try, using Liquid and Jonesy
as limiting parameters. I do not think, in any way, that the Trek is
suitable for XC on tight, twisty terrain.

Of course, you could get a screaming sweet hardtail for that money.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Ick. I fractured my tailbone in an unfortunate trampoline accident a few
years back and it has never healed properly... No hardtails for me!


Now, before you bitch about my post (assuming you've read this far,)
remember that you wrote that "any advice appreciated" thingy right up
there.

Good luck, and don't forget Turner, Ventana, Titus and Yeti id you are
still looking after this post.


Any particular models you would recomend? I am 99% certain I will be
shopping for an all-mountain type bike.

--
Jonesy

"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message ...
"Jonesy" wrote in message
om...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...

That's about what I weigh, and I don't think it's outrageous to pick
up a well-made XC bike for a guy of your mass. A Fuel might not make
it for you, or it might. Depends on how easy you are on equipment.
Since you're not doing freeride/hucking, and XC bike might do well for
you.

I did consider a lighter corss country ride for a long time, but I have come
to the conclusion that since I don't plan to race, I would rather have too
much bike than not enough, because I am pretty sure I will want to "try
stuff".

Well, then, Specialized Enduro, Giant VT, Turner 5-spot, Titus
Locomoto. The Specialized will probably be the most "bang for the
buck." The VT might not be robust enough.


Yes, indeed. I have found that with Kona, unless you can get a great
end-of-year deal, that you are spending a lot for not so much.
House-brand stuff, no-name stuff, etc. Same with Trek, but at least
the price is lower. I used to own a Kona, so I'm not just ****ing on
that choice from nowhere.

If those were your only two choices (and they aren't), then I would
take the Trek, reluctantly, and with huge reservations (assuming you
are forced to pay MSRP on either.)

What are your reservations in regards to the Trek? Similarly, based on the
spec of the Dawg dee-lux, what components does it include that you would not
consider up to snuff?

As I said, do a Google Groups search for my comments about the Liquid
within the past week or so. They haven't changed, and I'm not going
to type the same stuff again to save you thirty seconds of search
time!

House-brand parts (like both Kona and Trek use) are of unknown quality
and durability. You seem to want quality and durability, so skip the
house brands if you can. It's just that simple. I don't like the
wheelsets on either the Kona or the Trek, and a big guy like you needs
a rugged wheelset. Tacoing a wheel out in the great beyond is not
good for your health. Maybe.

My experiences with the Liquid have been document here in the past
week or so. Give Google Groups search a try, using Liquid and Jonesy
as limiting parameters. I do not think, in any way, that the Trek is
suitable for XC on tight, twisty terrain.

That's one specific criticism. To get at the "why", do the search.

Now, before you bitch about my post (assuming you've read this far,)
remember that you wrote that "any advice appreciated" thingy right up
there.

Good luck, and don't forget Turner, Ventana, Titus and Yeti id you are
still looking after this post.

Any particular models you would recomend?

The ones I mention above, the Yeti AS-X, Ventana Bruja, Marin Wolf
Ridge (The fork is better than the model right below it).

It's your money. If it were mine, I'd spend it on buying the best
bike for the money, with known-quality parts. Even if it cost a bit
more. Hell, that's what I did!
--
Jonesy

"Jonesy" wrote in message
m...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...
"Jonesy" wrote in message
om...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...

That's about what I weigh, and I don't think it's outrageous to pick
up a well-made XC bike for a guy of your mass. A Fuel might not make
it for you, or it might. Depends on how easy you are on equipment.
Since you're not doing freeride/hucking, and XC bike might do well for
you.

I did consider a lighter corss country ride for a long time, but I have
come
to the conclusion that since I don't plan to race, I would rather have
too
much bike than not enough, because I am pretty sure I will want to "try
stuff".

Well, then, Specialized Enduro, Giant VT, Turner 5-spot, Titus
Locomoto. The Specialized will probably be the most "bang for the
buck." The VT might not be robust enough.


Yes, indeed. I have found that with Kona, unless you can get a great
end-of-year deal, that you are spending a lot for not so much.
House-brand stuff, no-name stuff, etc. Same with Trek, but at least
the price is lower. I used to own a Kona, so I'm not just ****ing on
that choice from nowhere.

If those were your only two choices (and they aren't), then I would
take the Trek, reluctantly, and with huge reservations (assuming you
are forced to pay MSRP on either.)

What are your reservations in regards to the Trek? Similarly, based on
the
spec of the Dawg dee-lux, what components does it include that you would
not
consider up to snuff?

As I said, do a Google Groups search for my comments about the Liquid
within the past week or so. They haven't changed, and I'm not going
to type the same stuff again to save you thirty seconds of search
time!

Sorry, I actually did do that search exactly two seconds after I posted
last. I have to say that you rcriticism make sense and come as no surprise
as I have since seen several pictures of those Liquid "flexstays" snapped in
two....


House-brand parts (like both Kona and Trek use) are of unknown quality
and durability. You seem to want quality and durability, so skip the
house brands if you can. It's just that simple. I don't like the
wheelsets on either the Kona or the Trek, and a big guy like you needs
a rugged wheelset. Tacoing a wheel out in the great beyond is not
good for your health. Maybe.

The Sun 0 degree rims on the Dawg Dee-lux seem to be rather well regarded,
at least on mtbreview...
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Rim...ct_22621.shtml.

"these rims rock. i weight over 200 lbs. and ride very bumpy and rocky
trails and these rims haven't gone out of true yet, even when they were
laced wrong and didn't even notice that for the first month. they were about
half the other rims of same weight and quality. will definitely get these
again. maybe even the 0deg. lites, by then i should be under 200 and will
have a little more confidence in those. absolutly 5 chilies"

Granted there are a couple of negative reviews, but I wonder how honest
these people are being about the cause of thier troubles?

If you criticism is primary towards the hubs, that I can understand, as I
have not heard great things about Deore hubs... On the other hand there are
highly rated hubs and reasonably inexpensive hubs that I could replace the
525s with should they fail, no?




It's your money. If it were mine, I'd spend it on buying the best
bike for the money, with known-quality parts. Even if it cost a bit
more. Hell, that's what I did!

Noted :-)

--
Jonesy

"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message ...
"Jonesy" wrote in message
m...
"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message
...

As I said, do a Google Groups search for my comments about the Liquid
within the past week or so. They haven't changed, and I'm not going
to type the same stuff again to save you thirty seconds of search
time!

Sorry, I actually did do that search exactly two seconds after I posted
last. I have to say that you rcriticism make sense and come as no surprise
as I have since seen several pictures of those Liquid "flexstays" snapped in
two....

House-brand parts (like both Kona and Trek use) are of unknown quality
and durability. You seem to want quality and durability, so skip the
house brands if you can. It's just that simple. I don't like the
wheelsets on either the Kona or the Trek, and a big guy like you needs
a rugged wheelset. Tacoing a wheel out in the great beyond is not
good for your health. Maybe.

The Sun 0 degree rims on the Dawg Dee-lux seem to be rather well regarded,
at least on mtbreview...
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Rim...ct_22621.shtml.

"these rims rock. i weight over 200 lbs. and ride very bumpy and rocky
trails and these rims haven't gone out of true yet, even when they were
laced wrong and didn't even notice that for the first month. they were about
half the other rims of same weight and quality. will definitely get these
again. maybe even the 0deg. lites, by then i should be under 200 and will
have a little more confidence in those. absolutly 5 chilies"

Granted there are a couple of negative reviews, but I wonder how honest
these people are being about the cause of thier troubles?

MTBR stuff you really have to take with a grain of salt. The negs?
Maybe buyer's remorse or some such. Or they are honest - who knows?
Much more, if you look carefully, you see the attitude, "I bought it,
so it must be good." I would probably use the reviews as sort of an
overview, but not as gospel.

Folks in this ng seem to like Mavic X618s. My Mavic 223s work OK, but
I "ride light" on an XC rig, and one foot is a big drop, LOL.

If you criticism is primary towards the hubs, that I can understand, as I
have not heard great things about Deore hubs... On the other hand there are
highly rated hubs and reasonably inexpensive hubs that I could replace the
525s with should they fail, no?

I run Deores as well. They have worked OK, and are cheap. If they
break, I can buy more cheap. Since I know how to lace my own wheels,
I can replace a hub for the cost of a hub and an afternoon. If I had
an unlimited budget, I'd get Hugi or King hubs.

But you are talking about doing free-ride. So you need to have strong
hoops, and decent spokes, no matter what hubs you buy. I would say
the hubs are the least important, and the spokes the most - the more
tension you can get, the stronger the wheel. Usually, this is
rim-limited. Now, don't take my word - this is from Jobst Brandt's
wheelbuilding book. A good read, even if you never build your own
wheel.

Wheelsmith or DT Swiss double-butted. On Mavic X618s, and some
hub-to-be-named. Hand-built by a professional, with brass nipples
(the wheel, not the professional, Sorni.) I think you'll find that
this money is well-spent. I got machine-built, and they were crap
from the git-go. Had to tension a pile, stress-relieve, and they
STILL are crummy. I'll replace the spokes soon.

It's your money. If it were mine, I'd spend it on buying the best
bike for the money, with known-quality parts. Even if it cost a bit
more. Hell, that's what I did!

Noted :-)

After you get it figured out, write back. I'd be interested in where
you went, and how you got there.

Oh, and post a ride report or two. I love to live vicariously through
others.
--
Jonesy

I run Deores as well. They have worked OK, and are cheap. If they
break, I can buy more cheap. Since I know how to lace my own wheels,
I can replace a hub for the cost of a hub and an afternoon. If I had
an unlimited budget, I'd get Hugi or King hubs.

But you are talking about doing free-ride.

Oh, I didn't mean to give that impression..... I mean, I won't be doing any
huge drops or anything, nor will I be riding across little wooden ramps. I
want a stong bike because I am a big guy. I just want to know that if I
decide to go down a steep bumpy hill etc, that my bike isn't going to flex
under me. It's for peice of mind. I don't need a ultra light bike, and all
mountain bikes can be had that are 28lb which is light enough for me.

So you need to have strong
hoops, and decent spokes, no matter what hubs you buy. I would say
the hubs are the least important, and the spokes the most - the more
tension you can get, the stronger the wheel. Usually, this is
rim-limited. Now, don't take my word - this is from Jobst Brandt's
wheelbuilding book. A good read, even if you never build your own
wheel.

That's good information to have. I am sure that I will eventually try
building a wheel...

"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message ...
I am in the market for a new mountain bike. I have narrowed down my choices


I am 6'2 and weight 200lbs, so I want an all mountian frame rather than a


Any advice appretiated, though I would prefer if personal feelings could be
kept to a minimum

The Titus loco moto is the bike for you. Light ,strong
,simple,effective suspension and durable.Reasonably priced as well.
I had no complaints with mine untill it was pinched.

cheers

G

"Jimmy Boffo" wrote in message ...
I am in the market for a new mountain bike. I have narrowed down my choices


I am 6'2 and weight 200lbs, so I want an all mountian frame rather than a


Any advice appretiated, though I would prefer if personal feelings could be
kept to a minimum

The Titus loco moto is the bike for you. Light ,strong
,simple,effective suspension and durable.Reasonably priced as well.
I had no complaints with mine untill it was pinched.

cheers

G