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  #31  
Old June 18th 18, 06:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ned Mantei[_2_]
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Posts: 81
Default Helmet News

On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more common
while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused any
significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a mostly
imaginary problem.


My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right
of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I
wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came
crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar
bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track,
hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand
riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on
vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the
shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at
least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a
nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more
experience from riding every day all these years, I would have realized
that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more
carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding.

Ned

* Further experience from that accident: If you are going to break a
bone, the collar bone may be the best bone to break. You don't need a
cast, and it generally heals well. Disadvantage: It's intensely painful.
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  #32  
Old June 18th 18, 07:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
Default Helmet News

On 18/06/2018 1:45 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more
common while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused
any significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a
mostly imaginary problem.


My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right
of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I
wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came
crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar
bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track,
hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand
riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on
vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the
shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at
least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a
nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more
experience from riding every day all these years, IĀ* would have realized
that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more
carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding.

Ned

* Further experience from that accident: If you are going to break a
bone, the collar bone may be the best bone to break. You don't need a
cast, and it generally heals well. Disadvantage: It's intensely painful.



Here we go...
  #33  
Old June 18th 18, 07:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Helmet News

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?


It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)



I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."


Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #34  
Old June 18th 18, 08:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Helmet News

On 6/18/2018 1:45 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 18-06-18 04:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In reality, brain injury while bicycling is very rare. It's more
common while traveling as a pedestrian. And helmets have not caused
any significant improvement. They cause negligible improvement in a
mostly imaginary problem.


My helmet story: In 1989 I was stopped at a traffic light to the right
of tram tracks that were wet from rain. As the light turned green I
wanted to turn left. The front wheel slipped on the wet track and I came
crashing down hard on the road/other track, breaking my left collar
bone*. Also my head came crashing down onto the pavement or other track,
hitting on the side. At that time probably less than one in a thousand
riders wore a helmet in Zurich, and I had bought my Bell helmet while on
vacation in the USA. I still clearly remember how the helmet took up the
shock of the blow, and am convinced that without it I would have had at
least a concussion and quite possibly ended up as a vegetable in a
nursing home for the rest of my life. It's true that nowadays, with more
experience from riding every day all these years, IĀ* would have realized
that the tracks would be slippery and would have crossed them more
carefully. But still I always where a helmet when riding.

Ned


Yep. "My helmet saved me" stories are a dime a dozen. Yet there is no
corresponding reduction in cycling fatalities nor concussion counts.

I'm not saying that no helmet has ever reduced injuries. But adding an
inch of fragile styrofoam to one's head is very likely to produce false
claims of benefit. Again, if my 16 year old self had worn a helmet on
that icy day, it would have certainly cracked. Most helmet proponents
would have said it prevented serious injury. But there was no serious
injury at all - nothing beyond "Ouch, that really hurt!"

We once had a tandem crash. It was at low speed, when the fork blades
suddenly broke off upon hitting a pothole, because the custom builder
was in a rush to finish the bike before his honeymoon. Without telling
me, he substituted thin track-gage forks whose metal was one third that
of the proper tandem gage forks. Anyway, my wife cracked the super-thin
plastic shell on the helmet. I had to buy her a new one just to prevent
the "See? It saved her life!" stories. And of course, the manufacturer
says the magic leaks out if you're in any crash at all.

And again, even if it _were_ proven that styrofoam helmets are
marvelously protective, why should they be promoted only for the group
that makes up just 0.6% of America's TBI fatalities? Pedestrians' counts
are far higher, and are higher on a per-mile basis. Motorists' counts
are also far higher, and car helmets would be far, far cheaper than
explosive airbags.

Society's medical costs would be reduced far more if the funny hats were
applied to the groups with the biggest injury counts. Instead, they've
applied a myth of brain injury to a very safe and beneficial activity.
And cyclists are keen to promote the "Danger! Danger!" myth. Go figure.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #35  
Old June 18th 18, 08:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Helmet News

On 6/18/2018 1:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?


It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)



I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."


Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.

-- Jay Beattie.






Right.
After a lifetime of road rash, stitches and a nice selection
of screws and hardware[1] I qualify as an expert, as much as
anyone.

Bad things happen to good riders. Some were by my error,
either by omission or commission, but some were not
avoidable in any practical sense. And there you have life's
randomness. Chaos doesn't emote.

Yes, critical analysis of riding helps. That and experience
are good, but not sufficient to avoid all injuries. Yes, at
the margin helmets do something[2], but are not a panacea
either.

[1] some neat scars; great conversation starter
[2] not interested in that argument today
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #36  
Old June 18th 18, 08:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Helmet News

On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?


It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)



I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."


Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.


Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal
behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing
temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the
limit in races...

Look, if I were to enter races, I'd wear a helmet. That's true for bike
racing, motorcycle racing or car racing. That's beside the point.
(Although the two road races I entered way back when featured no
helmets. Same was true for most races around the world. Oh, the humanity!)

And I suppose if you really have a compulsion to explore the limits of
traction, it might be reasonable to wear a helmet, although some very
smart people have disagreed.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/5460047009

But I've always been a pretty careful rider, and it's paid off. YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #37  
Old June 18th 18, 08:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default Helmet News

Frank Krygowski wrote:

In fact, recent data showed an _increase_ of
over 60% in bike-related concussions during
the time when American helmet use
greatly increased.


Perhaps other things changed during that time
as well? More people riding, traffic getting
even more out of hand, and so on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #38  
Old June 18th 18, 10:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Helmet News

On 6/18/2018 3:32 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

In fact, recent data showed an _increase_ of
over 60% in bike-related concussions during
the time when American helmet use
greatly increased.


Perhaps other things changed during that time
as well? More people riding, traffic getting
even more out of hand, and so on.


I've seen no evidence. The popularity of riding goes up and down with
fashion, but there's been no 60% increase.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...t_popular.html

Regarding helmet use and brain injury: Rare as it is, the needle isn't
even moving in the right direction. How many excuses for the helmet
mania can people make?

It should be last on the list of tactics to improve bicycling.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #39  
Old June 19th 18, 01:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Helmet News

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 12:22:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?

It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)



I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."


Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.


Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal
behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing
temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the
limit in races...


How dramatic! All the sudden I'm flying through wet corners and pushing it to the limit in races! I should have my own YouTube channel.

The fact is that ordinary people just riding along can get whacked or crash.. Black ice is invisible and localized, and riding in temperatures below 32F is SOP for year-round commuters in the PNW.

Race crashes can occur when people are bunched up and not pushing it to the limit -- or a dog runs into the field or someone hits road furniture or railroad tracks. Crashes are not confined to the finishing sprint or hair-raising descents.

I live in a wet environment that is hilly and has bad roads. People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor. https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/...e-crash-254716

And people can get whacked by cars or other bicyclists for no reason. **** happens -- except to you, which is amazing. You should should have your own shrine, right along with the cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #40  
Old June 19th 18, 01:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Helmet News

On 6/18/2018 7:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 12:22:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:13:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2018 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/18/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:58:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I avoid wrecking.

...

I believe in risk compensation.

Yes, we know. So how does that work with getting hit by a car, wiping
out on ice, going OTB after getting hung up in a dog leash?

It does work out somehow, Jay. I take measures to prevent all those
things, successfully. In some cases (riding on ice) the measure is to
avoid it. Note, you seem to sometimes get ice when we might get snow -
but I do ride in snow. Very carefully. Falls have been rare and injuries
nonexistent, except for an "ouch!" bump on the back of my head when I
was about 16. (I suppose if I'd worn a bike helmet then, people would
have said it saved my life.)


I'm willing to slow down for a dog on a leash, including the last one
that came out after me about five days ago. It's a known hazard; I watch
for it. The same is true for gravel on turns, potholes, motorists who
may turn left across my path, etc.

I don't care much for the story that goes "I goofed up and crashed, and
that proves helmets are great."

Hmmm. Yes, many crashes result from "goof-ups" -- by riders, drivers, pedestrians, manufacturers, etc. I crashed on UmmaGumma tires because of Specialized's choice of tread compound. That was a serious goof-up. God goofed-up and created invisible and localized black-ice on my way to work one morning. Racers have goofed-up in front of me, crashing and piling-up like cord wood. I cartwheeled over my son who goofed-up and crashed in front of me on a wet descent -- which was due in part to slippery tread compound. I won't even get into the goof-ups by motorists.


Yes, I understand. None of those were foreseeable. It's just normal
behavior to fly through wet descents, to be unaware of freezing
temperatures, to test the limits of new tires' traction, to push to the
limit in races...


How dramatic! All the sudden I'm flying through wet corners and pushing it to the limit in races! I should have my own YouTube channel.

The fact is that ordinary people just riding along can get whacked or crash. Black ice is invisible and localized, and riding in temperatures below 32F is SOP for year-round commuters in the PNW.

Race crashes can occur when people are bunched up and not pushing it to the limit -- or a dog runs into the field or someone hits road furniture or railroad tracks. Crashes are not confined to the finishing sprint or hair-raising descents.

I live in a wet environment that is hilly and has bad roads. People can crash just riding along -- even the mayor. https://bikeportland.org/2017/11/16/...e-crash-254716

And people can get whacked by cars or other bicyclists for no reason. **** happens -- except to you, which is amazing. You should should have your own shrine, right along with the cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary.

-- Jay Beattie.


"or a dog runs into the field"


Dog indeed. Joachim Agostinho finished his career, and life,
leading with just meters to the finish line when a dog did
him in. Nothing in 'Effective Cycling' or any amount of
prudence would have helped him. He was among the oldest
Pros at the time, with as much riding experience as anyone
on earth.

In a similar vein, my ex employee Carl Zach, a fine young
man and a schoolteacher, was leading a race, his mother
watching at the finish line, when an ambulance, not on call,
sailed around a barricade and across the course and killed
him despite his helmet.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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