Group etiquette overtaking slower riders

In article
,
Ben Trovato wrote:

A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. Â*What you need is a few
lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
professional.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/gra.../photos/140302

Would you pull the thorn out of my foot?

--
Old Fritz

In article ,
Ben Trovato wrote:

A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. *What you need is a
few
lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
professional.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/gra...pt/photos/1403
02

I notice more than a few smirks in that shot. Nice one.

On Sep 13, 9:42*pm, Frederick the Great wrote:
In article
,
*Ben Trovato wrote:

A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. *What you need is a few
lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
professional.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/gra...-quebec-upt/ph...

Would you pull the thorn out of my foot?

At least his hands are still on the bars.
DR

On 9/13/2010 5:09 PM, Brad Anders wrote:
My suggestion here is that if you're
actually serious about racing, organize your own small group rides,
where the focus is on specifc training goals and not on which asshole
is first at the Portola Valley sprint.

This is the correct answer.

When I was in college there was a group ride out to a weekly club
time trial. As the urban area grew and surrounding farmland turned
into subdivisions, traffic conflicts increased. At one point I
pondered the risk benefit ratio of the group ride and began riding
out and returning from the TT location alone or with a few friends.

Fred Flintstein

On Sep 13, 7:00*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Sep 13, 2:04*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
road.

I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
folk should get off the friggin road)?

Aside from the aspect of courtesy for the slower riders, there is just
the general issue of safety. Under a nearly identical scenario I was
part of group (~20) that was flying along on a rural road on "trash
pickup" day where an occasional unretrieved wheeled trash bin still
graced the shoulder (or what amounted to a shoulder) in the evening.
At one point the group came upon one of these and the front of the
group easily avoided it (and there may have been some verbal
communication). I was perhaps mid-pack *and had no clue what was
coming. I was lucky to merely get the startling "whoosh" as I cleared
the bin bu a foot or so. But I knew exactly what would happen next and
it did - a single loud thud followed by all sorts of nasty sounds of
metal and carbon, bodies and pavement. Three riders were quite badly
hurt, bikes essentially destroyed.

I don't have an answer to the problem aside from noting that smaller
groups are a plus and having a group that where everyone rides
together regularly and knows one another usually makes for better
cohesiveness and communication. Even if they can't be excluded, it can
be helpful to know who the flaky riders and/or the idiosyncrasies of
even the good riders. "Good" in this case meaning well behaved.

There's nothing much better than a good group ride, or much worse than
a bad one. *What are good and bad? Not always readily definable, but
you know them when they happen.

Lack of plain communication. The first couple of riders need to
gesture broadly, not just "avoid" and maybe mutter something.
Plain and simple: It's their fault, and the fault of other riders
further back in the group, that there was a crash.

I've seen some real assholes lead group rides, jerks who deliberately
graze obstacles and potholes and think it's funny (just to illustrate
the extreme end of the spectrum here).

Everybody in the group has responsibility for everyone else. Some
think this is a pussy attitude. Can I get a witness?

There's a ride or two around here known for crashes. Duh. Not as bad
as the Houston Death Ride where they didn't stop for lights or stop
signs. I understand that ride died out.

Other local rides are known for a much, much lower crash-per-mile
ratio. It's not an accident g. More of an IQ test, IMHO.
There's one that is officially a "recovery ride" on Sunday, that
follows a Saturday ride known to go fairly long (80 miles or so) at a
hard pace for the riding members. The Sunday ride tends to roll out at
conversational pace, make a store stop about halfway through the 50
mile distance, and have "determinations" after a good long warmup.
There are problems keeping both rides organized because some people
just can't get in the boat and row.

When I was younger and fit, I rode a few of the hammer-dude rides.
Some people think they're training on those rides, I guess.
It's really just hammering, often. Fun, maybe, but not smart training
(opinion stated as such), nothing like doing structured intervals or
group sprint repeats.
--D-y

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
road.

I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
folk should get off the friggin road)?

Here's what happened on one of our local group rides recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRkJPHWPz4

Although it's not exactly your scenario, it shows what can happen.
None of the injuries were too serious ....this time.

In article 11ef0991-5bf4-4def-940c-
,
says...


On Sep 13, 2:04*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving
pack
overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job
of
giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost,
and
the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off
the
road.

I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that
slower
folk should get off the friggin road)?

Aside from the aspect of courtesy for the slower riders, there is just
the general issue of safety. Under a nearly identical scenario I was
part of group (~20) that was flying along on a rural road on "trash
pickup" day where an occasional unretrieved wheeled trash bin still
graced the shoulder (or what amounted to a shoulder) in the evening.
At one point the group came upon one of these and the front of the
group easily avoided it (and there may have been some verbal
communication). I was perhaps mid-pack and had no clue what was
coming. I was lucky to merely get the startling "whoosh" as I cleared
the bin bu a foot or so. But I knew exactly what would happen next and
it did - a single loud thud followed by all sorts of nasty sounds of
metal and carbon, bodies and pavement. Three riders were quite badly
hurt, bikes essentially destroyed.

I don't have an answer to the problem aside from noting that smaller
groups are a plus and having a group that where everyone rides
together regularly and knows one another usually makes for better
cohesiveness and communication. Even if they can't be excluded, it can
be helpful to know who the flaky riders and/or the idiosyncrasies of
even the good riders. "Good" in this case meaning well behaved.

There's nothing much better than a good group ride, or much worse than
a bad one. What are good and bad? Not always readily definable, but
you know them when they happen.

DR
I have to agree with DR's assessment. Large group rides mean a high
probability of one or two cyclist inexperienced with group rides, which is a
safety factor in itself. Secondly a small group, say no more than 6 riders,
probably know each other and can much more easily avoid the stray
garbage can, slow rider being overpassed, etc.

On Sep 14, 12:53*pm, Marco wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
road.

I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
folk should get off the friggin road)?

Here's what happened on one of our local group rides recently:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRkJPHWPz4

Although it's not exactly your scenario, it shows what can happen.
None of the injuries were too serious ....this time.

Looks like someone sat up or maybe even hit the brakes? I didn't hear
any verbals or see the rider who was going slow raise his hand up high
in warning.
--D-y

Impressive that rbr, when asked a serious question that many of us deal with
on a regular basis, can really get behind it in a serious way. Thank you all
for the thoughtful responses, and reminding me why I don't do large group
rides anymore.

For the slower folk complaining about being scared when overtaken by a large
group of cyclists, I'm suggesting they use ding-ding bells. I'm thinking the
sound carries a fair amount and might warn people who can't see them (before
it's too late) that there's something ahead to watch out for.

In the past, I've always assumed the ding-ding bells were to let others know
you were passing them, but I'm seeing things a bit differently now. It's
that last half of a large group that you have to be scared of.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On Sep 14, 1:53*pm, Marco wrote:

Here's what happened on one of our local group rides recently:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRkJPHWPz4

The Cliff Bar wrapper blowing away is awesome. That's like something
out of a Euro art film.