#31
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Belt drive
On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 11:33:09 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/26/2019 9:44 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:23, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 18:00:49 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Bicycles have been built, and sold commercially, with shaft drives for a considerable number of years, since 1893 (by the League Cycle Company). Strangely, perhaps because of the efficiency of other drive systems they were never what one might call popular. BMW should sell MTB. They know how shaft-drive is done right. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. See: https://momentummag.com/commuter-bik...-carbon-drive/ https://www.veercycle.com/ or perhaps even better see https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-dr...manufacturers/ I wouldn't want a belt drive. If that belt snaps it generally does so without warning and then it can be a nasty crash. That's true but how different to the rider from a broken chain, driveshaft, crank or pedal? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 You can't fix a broken belt drive with a scrounged fence nail and a rock. VBEG With all the stuff he already carries he might as well carry a spare belt. Cheers |
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#32
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Belt drive
On 4/26/2019 10:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG The most likely reason is because there isn't a very large market for such things. Lets see... you are 1. Sometimes a market needs to be awakened first. Many times I heard people say "I had to carry this, that and the other thing so I used the car". Well, I don't, which is why my bikes see 2-3x the mileage of my car. And so hundreds of your neighbors now have battle-tank bicycles and have stopped driving their cars? ;-) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#33
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Belt drive
Since nobody else has pointed it out yet: Toothed belts must have tension on them to work correctly, without skipping or gnawing their teeth away. Such tension is unhealthy for bottom bracket and hub bearings, and downright destructive to freewheels and freehubs.
I've repaired cheap belt drive bikes whose plastic pulleys had become so worn down in a relatively short time that the belt climbed over the teeth when pedaling hard. I don't think belt drive makes sense for a bicycle, unless it's a fixed gear. A rear hub would have to be designed and built with static belt tension in mind for it to work well. |
#34
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Belt drive
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" -- cheers, John B. |
#35
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Belt drive
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:40:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:27, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:22:41 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG The most likely reason is because there isn't a very large market for such things. Lets see... you are 1. Sometimes a market needs to be awakened first. Many times I heard people say "I had to carry this, that and the other thing so I used the car". Well, I don't, which is why my bikes see 2-3x the mileage of my car. It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. The carbon-fiber bicycles are so popular is because they are light :-) I doubt that marketing a bike because it is heavier than all the rest would be a real smart marketing move :-) No, it has to be marketed as sturdier than the others. That gets customers. Why do you think heavy SUVs sell so well in some areas? The reason that USV's were invented was to circumvent U.S. regulations about fuel economy (if I remember correctly). By building a vehicle on a truck chassis and classifying it as a truck the fuel consumption limits for automobiles didn't apply. -- cheers, John B. |
#36
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Belt drive
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. Any chain will need care if it’s being used in filthy conditions, though I have found Squirt dry wax to be remarkably good. https://www.amazon.com/Squirt-Long-L.../dp/B00ANNR15G Bookmarked, another one to try some day although if ok I'd want to find a lower priced source. So far I am happy with White Lightning Epic Ride. The main work is the cleaning. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG Probably because if your using the bike differently to others, my commute bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with panniers and a barbag as I found the weight on the rear effected the handling though with the weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some fun in the woods if one wants. But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear and as a leisure rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen. Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big lock, some spare parts and most of all water. The water alone can be north of a gallon in summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to refill (safely). How often or likely is a full tool kit needed? Personally I do take some Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where needed. For a fun ride lock generally isn’t needed, and even riding 20 miles 7k up at above 30’C two water bottles was fine, 8 bottles is just over kill to put it mildly. It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. To be honest I haven’t found anything breaks with high mileage even on rough surfaces, bar bolts the old hardtail was about 10 years old when I pressed it into commuting service, and fitted panniers and what not, but found that various bolts/attachments over the bike took it in turn to fail over a few months. I like to be able to take rocky trails and a HT would just not work for me there, partially on account of some lower back issues. IMO any bicycle should be able to carry a load in order to provide a practical mode of transportation. For example, one client and a software engineer are located along a rough singletrack. A trail where a HT bike isn't fun. By the time you have that much weight, which is probably well over what the suspension is rated for plus the thick tyres, inner tubes the ride is likely to be fairly poor. I’ve swapped out some Marathon plus Touring for some big apples and much better ride, particularly when heavily laden. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls Wasn’t that a fairly cheap and well faulty? Not really a fair test. Normally Ikea tests the heck out of stuff. It's cheap alright but the quality of their gear is often quite ok. Roger Merriman |
#37
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Belt drive
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. Any chain will need care if it’s being used in filthy conditions, though I have found Squirt dry wax to be remarkably good. https://www.amazon.com/Squirt-Long-L.../dp/B00ANNR15G Bookmarked, another one to try some day although if ok I'd want to find a lower priced source. So far I am happy with White Lightning Epic Ride. The main work is the cleaning. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG Probably because if your using the bike differently to others, my commute bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with panniers and a barbag as I found the weight on the rear effected the handling though with the weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some fun in the woods if one wants. But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear and as a leisure rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen. Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big lock, some spare parts and most of all water. The water alone can be north of a gallon in summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to refill (safely). How often or likely is a full tool kit needed? Personally I do take some Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where needed. I used to carry a lot of stuff, chain tool, spare links, etc. Then I realized that I have never broken a chain so I discarded the chain tool and the spare links, etc., and now I carry a spare tube, a CO2 cartridge and inflator, the 5 Allen wrenches that fit everything on the bike and two tire tools. Other than the tire tools and CO2 I can't remember when I needed anything else :-) For a fun ride lock generally isn’t needed, and even riding 20 miles 7k up at above 30’C two water bottles was fine, 8 bottles is just over kill to put it mildly. I used to do a Sunday 50 km ride in 30 degree+ (C) weather and carried two of the large size bicycle water bottles and never felt the need for more. It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. To be honest I haven’t found anything breaks with high mileage even on rough surfaces, bar bolts the old hardtail was about 10 years old when I pressed it into commuting service, and fitted panniers and what not, but found that various bolts/attachments over the bike took it in turn to fail over a few months. I like to be able to take rocky trails and a HT would just not work for me there, partially on account of some lower back issues. IMO any bicycle should be able to carry a load in order to provide a practical mode of transportation. For example, one client and a software engineer are located along a rough singletrack. A trail where a HT bike isn't fun. By the time you have that much weight, which is probably well over what the suspension is rated for plus the thick tyres, inner tubes the ride is likely to be fairly poor. I’ve swapped out some Marathon plus Touring for some big apples and much better ride, particularly when heavily laden. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls Wasn’t that a fairly cheap and well faulty? Not really a fair test. Normally Ikea tests the heck out of stuff. It's cheap alright but the quality of their gear is often quite ok. Roger Merriman -- cheers, John B. |
#38
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Belt drive
On 26/04/2019 17.26, Chalo wrote:
Since nobody else has pointed it out yet: Toothed belts must have tension on them to work correctly, without skipping or gnawing their teeth away. Such tension is unhealthy for bottom bracket and hub bearings, and downright destructive to freewheels and freehubs. I've repaired cheap belt drive bikes whose plastic pulleys had become so worn down in a relatively short time that the belt climbed over the teeth when pedaling hard. I don't think belt drive makes sense for a bicycle, unless it's a fixed gear. A rear hub would have to be designed and built with static belt tension in mind for it to work well. I always wondered about that, but ime the tension on the belt is not so different from the 90KG of me on it mushing it up a hill! I wouldn't go for the plastic pulley option mind. Too much grinding paste around my way :-( |
#39
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-26 08:33, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/26/2019 9:44 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:23, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 18:00:49 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman wrote: [...] Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. See: https://momentummag.com/commuter-bik...-carbon-drive/ https://www.veercycle.com/ or perhaps even better see https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-dr...manufacturers/ I wouldn't want a belt drive. If that belt snaps it generally does so without warning and then it can be a nasty crash. That's true but how different to the rider from a broken chain, driveshaft, crank or pedal? Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue. As for cranks a friend of mine had an expensive Campagnolo crank break and it was clearly a manufacturing defect but they refused to even do a warranty exchange. He landed towards the middle of the road but luckily no cars came along. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#40
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-26 16:20, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:40:39 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:27, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:22:41 -0700, Joerg wrote: [...] It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. The carbon-fiber bicycles are so popular is because they are light :-) I doubt that marketing a bike because it is heavier than all the rest would be a real smart marketing move :-) No, it has to be marketed as sturdier than the others. That gets customers. Why do you think heavy SUVs sell so well in some areas? The reason that USV's were invented was to circumvent U.S. regulations about fuel economy (if I remember correctly). By building a vehicle on a truck chassis and classifying it as a truck the fuel consumption limits for automobiles didn't apply. That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger vehicle, else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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