Best brakes?

On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply them,
they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on carbon rims. I
have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire strength to get
the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at the bottom of many
steep descents around here. That is - with my entire strength I
cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful
not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have the
back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is. Aluminium
rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon are incompatible.

--
JS

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply them,
they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on carbon rims. I
have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire strength to get
the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at the bottom of many
steep descents around here. That is - with my entire strength I
cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful
not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have the
back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is. Aluminium
rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon are incompatible.

--
JS

It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible. I find it extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well unless I'm using that extremely soft brake pad material that wears the aluminum rim braking surface out in short order.

I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always know where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not to put wear on your wheels.

It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in fact. Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a 16% grade. In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights on hills like that because rim brakes are so powerful.

On 12/2/2019 10:12 PM, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply them,
they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on carbon rims. I
have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire strength to get
the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at the bottom of many
steep descents around here. That is - with my entire strength I
cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful
not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem.Â* Mine are fine.Â* I can easily have the
back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims.Â* That's where your problem is.Â* Aluminium
rims generally work much better.Â* It seems you and carbon are incompatible.

Yes, carbon rims and rim brakes are not a good combination. Carbon is
fine for some bicycle components but should be avoided for wheels with
rim brakes, forks, handlebars, seat posts, pedals, and cranks. It's okay
for frames and bottle cages.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply them,
they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on carbon rims. I
have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire strength to get
the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at the bottom of many
steep descents around here. That is - with my entire strength I
cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful
not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have the
back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is. Aluminium
rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon are incompatible.

--
JS

It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible. I find it extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well unless I'm using that extremely soft brake pad material that wears the aluminum rim braking surface out in short order.

I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always know where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not to put wear on your wheels.

It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in fact. Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a 16% grade. In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights on hills like that because rim brakes are so powerful.

I can lock up my front wheel with rim brakes quite easily with OE Shimano and Kool Stop salmon pads. I do a 16% decent many days of the week -- like yesterday. https://tinyurl.com/w8duhtl Spin around. I blow that stop because I lose traction with hard braking, assuming I've let my speed get too high. I blew it yesterday because it was icy and traffic was clear. Rim brakes work fine on aluminum rims, although I prefer discs in wet weather. My son had OE CF rims and hated them -- poor braking and overheating on the long, steep descents in Salt Lake. He dumped them and got some pro-deal Mavic aluminum rim wheels.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 02/12/2019 21:06, Chalo wrote:
If they're cable discs, there may be a mismatch in cable pull between
levers and calipers. There's a roughly 2:1 discrepancy in cable
travel between "MTB" and "road" versions.

If they're hydraulic brakes, there may be air in the hose or
hydraulic fluid on the pads.

I've managed both those in the past and the *really* stop hydraulic disc
brakes working. But once you've done it, you don't do it again :-)

On 4/12/19 2:15 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply
them, they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on
carbon rims. I have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire
strength to get the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at
the bottom of many steep descents around here. That is - with my
entire strength I cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I
have to be careful not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as
being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have
the back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh
backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is.
Aluminium rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon
are incompatible.


It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible.

What makes you say that? I have never even used carbon rims. Mine are
all aluminium, and I don't have a problem stopping with rim brakes (or
disc brakes). You said above that you have to apply rim brakes with
almost all your entire strength just to slow to a stop, using carbon
rims. Given your other difficulties with carbon components, it seems
you and carbon are incompatible.

I find it
extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well unless I'm using
that extremely soft brake pad material that wears the aluminum rim
braking surface out in short order.

I use standard Campagnolo brakes and pads on regular aluminium rims, and
I don't have a problem.


I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many
miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always know
where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not to put
wear on your wheels.

I ride about 10,000 km annually. I live next to a hill that has
sections of 10% and an average grade of 7% for 2 km. I ride over that
hill in both directions for every ride. The corners are sharp and the
road is narrow. There are sometimes obstructions - like wildlife and
farm animals that I have to brake hard at times to avoid.

Countless times I've cycled on roads with gradients up to 20%, again
with corners you have to brake hard for.

I have to say I think you make up scenarios to suit your notions.


It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in fact.
Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a 16% grade.
In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights on hills like
that because rim brakes are so powerful.


Absolutely I had the rear wheel floating on approach to a couple of
corners descending Mt Glorious near Brisbane, where the gradient is
close to 20% - and I had pushed myself back over the saddle.

--
JS

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 9:10:58 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply them,
they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on carbon rims. I
have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire strength to get
the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at the bottom of many
steep descents around here. That is - with my entire strength I
cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful
not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have the
back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is. Aluminium
rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon are incompatible.

--
JS

It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible. I find it extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well unless I'm using that extremely soft brake pad material that wears the aluminum rim braking surface out in short order.

I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always know where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not to put wear on your wheels.

It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in fact. Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a 16% grade. In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights on hills like that because rim brakes are so powerful.

I can lock up my front wheel with rim brakes quite easily with OE Shimano and Kool Stop salmon pads. I do a 16% decent many days of the week -- like yesterday. https://tinyurl.com/w8duhtl Spin around. I blow that stop because I lose traction with hard braking, assuming I've let my speed get too high. I blew it yesterday because it was icy and traffic was clear. Rim brakes work fine on aluminum rims, although I prefer discs in wet weather. My son had OE CF rims and hated them -- poor braking and overheating on the long, steep descents in Salt Lake. He dumped them and got some pro-deal Mavic aluminum rim wheels.

-- Jay Beattie.

Koolstop - that was what I was trying to remember. They work well but wear the hell out of the rim. There is another that is blue that has the same effect - strong braking at the cost of short rim life. I've had the entire rim blow off at the bottom of the brake strip. Now THAT is embarrassing on a group ride.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 12:39:46 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/12/19 2:15 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am not
overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to over-apply
them, they are very much stronger than normal rim brakes on
carbon rims. I have to apply the rim brakes with almost my entire
strength to get the bike to slow to a stop at the stop signs at
the bottom of many steep descents around here. That is - with my
entire strength I cannot lock the wheels whereas with the disks I
have to be careful not to lock the brakes. I interpret that as
being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily have
the back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my body weigh
backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is.
Aluminium rims generally work much better. It seems you and carbon
are incompatible.


It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible.

What makes you say that? I have never even used carbon rims. Mine are
all aluminium, and I don't have a problem stopping with rim brakes (or
disc brakes). You said above that you have to apply rim brakes with
almost all your entire strength just to slow to a stop, using carbon
rims. Given your other difficulties with carbon components, it seems
you and carbon are incompatible.

I find it
extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well unless I'm using
that extremely soft brake pad material that wears the aluminum rim
braking surface out in short order.

I use standard Campagnolo brakes and pads on regular aluminium rims, and
I don't have a problem.


I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many
miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always know
where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not to put
wear on your wheels.

I ride about 10,000 km annually. I live next to a hill that has
sections of 10% and an average grade of 7% for 2 km. I ride over that
hill in both directions for every ride. The corners are sharp and the
road is narrow. There are sometimes obstructions - like wildlife and
farm animals that I have to brake hard at times to avoid.

Countless times I've cycled on roads with gradients up to 20%, again
with corners you have to brake hard for.

I have to say I think you make up scenarios to suit your notions.


It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in fact.
Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a 16% grade.
In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights on hills like
that because rim brakes are so powerful.


Absolutely I had the rear wheel floating on approach to a couple of
corners descending Mt Glorious near Brisbane, where the gradient is
close to 20% - and I had pushed myself back over the saddle.

--
JS

James - if you don't know about carbon rims please don't make comments about them. There are a couple of youTube videos of a Brit who bought those super-cheap Chinese aero carbon rims like me and got over 13,000 km on the wheels without the braking surface wearing out. And they are (were?) $250 with free shipping.

With disk brakes the rims last forever.

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 2:52:43 PM UTC, Dieter Britz wrote:
My son has put together a very fancy bike and (of course)
put in disk brakes. But he is disappointed by them. We are
not sure why they don't brake very well. I feel that good
caliper brakes are the best.

Is that true? Or should disk brakes be equally good?

--
Dieter Britz

In every braking instance, whatever the brakes, the limit of braking is determined by the maximum friction between the tarmac of the road and the rubber of the tyre.

So, in theory, all brakes currently in use should brake equally well, since all are capable of exerting more than the force required at the limit of available tarmac/rubber friction. Vintage brakes like spoon brakes and even older roller brakes didn't in fact have enough clamping force though today's roller brakes will send you over the handlebars just like discs if you're careless.

I fancy Magura's hydraulic rim brakes for their progressivity. I also have bikes with roller brakes and disc brakes, and of course in the mists of history had bikes with standard rim brakes. All stop the bike but the manner of their stopping it differs greatly.

Progressive brakes have another advantage besides not face-planting the rider for very slip in concentration: they actually brake better because they are locked for less of the distance that the brakes are applied in every stop.

BTW, the standard Magura blocks on my bike with the rim hydraulics lasted over 5000m, and the rim looks good. I've never had disc brakes that didn't wear through their pads in 1000m.

Andre Jute
Jeremy Bentham, the founder of Utilitarianism, would roll over in his grave at the prices of bikes today

On 4/12/19 9:54 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 12:39:46 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/12/19 2:15 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am
not overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to
over-apply them, they are very much stronger than normal rim
brakes on carbon rims. I have to apply the rim brakes with
almost my entire strength to get the bike to slow to a stop
at the stop signs at the bottom of many steep descents around
here. That is - with my entire strength I cannot lock the
wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful not to
lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily
have the back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my
body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is.
Aluminium rims generally work much better. It seems you and
carbon are incompatible.


It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible.

What makes you say that? I have never even used carbon rims. Mine
are all aluminium, and I don't have a problem stopping with rim
brakes (or disc brakes). You said above that you have to apply rim
brakes with almost all your entire strength just to slow to a stop,
using carbon rims. Given your other difficulties with carbon
components, it seems you and carbon are incompatible.

I find it extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well
unless I'm using that extremely soft brake pad material that
wears the aluminum rim braking surface out in short order.

I use standard Campagnolo brakes and pads on regular aluminium
rims, and I don't have a problem.


I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many
miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always
know where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not
to put wear on your wheels.

I ride about 10,000 km annually. I live next to a hill that has
sections of 10% and an average grade of 7% for 2 km. I ride over
that hill in both directions for every ride. The corners are sharp
and the road is narrow. There are sometimes obstructions - like
wildlife and farm animals that I have to brake hard at times to
avoid.

Countless times I've cycled on roads with gradients up to 20%,
again with corners you have to brake hard for.

I have to say I think you make up scenarios to suit your notions.


It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in
fact. Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a
16% grade. In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights
on hills like that because rim brakes are so powerful.


Absolutely I had the rear wheel floating on approach to a couple
of corners descending Mt Glorious near Brisbane, where the gradient
is close to 20% - and I had pushed myself back over the saddle.

-- JS

James - if you don't know about carbon rims please don't make
comments about them. There are a couple of youTube videos of a Brit
who bought those super-cheap Chinese aero carbon rims like me and got
over 13,000 km on the wheels without the braking surface wearing out.
And they are (were?) $250 with free shipping.

Tom - you wrote above that you also have trouble braking with aluminium
rims. I don't. I raced with countless fellow using carbon rims with
rim brakes, and they seemed to be able to stop well enough too.

Now you're changing the subject, which seems to be a standard approach
to wriggling out, to something about rim wear.


With disk brakes the rims last forever.


Well, well. Who'd have thought that!

--
JS