#71
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up with increasingly stupid statements. Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an aluminum frame? But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch dimple) material around the indentation. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s). Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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#72
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration, at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner. It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a partial refund if that school is still in existence. Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some specific manner. So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through a base material. We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by journeyman machinists. I assume that you are referring to the following https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the time to "read up" on what you are trying to say. The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical, holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article, that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo, referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the terminal deck across Fremont Street. Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes. Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install the cylindrical revnuts. For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut, angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie. -- Cheers, John B. |
#73
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist. Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts, coming loose. But of course, the de-icer boots would have been installed by knowledgeable people not by some illiterate oaf that can't even tighten a screw properly. -- Cheers, John B. |
#74
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. "don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame." Why ever not? "drill bit shifted to the side a little." With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be symmetric they don't walk. Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain shops can accomplish :-) Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit! Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#75
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 5:29 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up with increasingly stupid statements. Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an aluminum frame? But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch dimple) material around the indentation. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s). Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-) No bilge pump on a bicycle. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#76
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration, at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner. It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a partial refund if that school is still in existence. Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some specific manner. So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through a base material. We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by journeyman machinists. I assume that you are referring to the following https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the time to "read up" on what you are trying to say. The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical, holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article, that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo, referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the terminal deck across Fremont Street. Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes. Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install the cylindrical revnuts. For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut, angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie. Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#77
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist. Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts, coming loose. Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930 prop planes. Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole), this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum. |
#78
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote:
snip Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle mounts when you buy it... True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such expensive luxuries as bottle mounts. Now he has to choose from one of many choices: 1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig, buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties. 4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or straps that go around the frame tube. 5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount. Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a clamp that covers up the hole.. |
#79
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 7:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield.* A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame.* I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine.* As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. "don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame." Why ever not? "drill bit shifted to the side a little." With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be symmetric they don't walk. Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain shops can accomplish :-) Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit! Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? You'd be surprised. I do it for a couple of guys I know. They act like it's magic! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#80
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 7:50 PM, sms wrote:
Most people would agree with the experts... There are several experts posting here. They disagree with you. One of your many problems, SMS, is that you define "expert" as "someone who agrees with SMS." Very, very few people accept that as a standard. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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