Predictions

On Thursday, 2 January 2020 20:59:50 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:02:28 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times.

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2..5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers.

- Frank Krygowski

No advantage, per se, but a fork a great deal larger than the tire
does look sort of "dorkie" and, for the weight weenies, there is a
very small weight advantage to the narrower crown.

Remember that "back in the day" narrow tires were pretty much
"standard". I used to use "sew ups" that might have been 23mm and I
have seem but never used 19mm tires :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

My folding Michelin Pro Comp slicks back in the mid-1980s were 19mm and had fantastic grip even on white painted road stripes, hard-packed snow or ice.. Of course I was a bit lighter then. If I could get a pair of those tires in good condition I'd put them on my fast bike.

As far as front forks and narrow tires go, I think that a shorter legged fork would be stiffer than a long legged fork with wide tires and fender clearance; all things being equal that is ie. same diameter legs..

Cheers

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 1:59:58 AM UTC, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:23:05 PM UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times..

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.


Lou

"Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width." This surprises me. It isn't the width by itself, it is the width and the associated possibility of lowering the pressure that comes with width, seriously increasing the rider's comfort. There are additional benefits of greater tyre width and lower pressure, for instance decreased rolling resistance. One interrelated result that interests me particularly --because in automobiles my primary interest was in suspensions -- is the noticeably better roadholding and handling characteristics of the wider and less highly pressurised tyres as compared to those which are narrower and more highly inflated.

Andre Jute
I'll try anything once

If you use the greater available width in the forks to fit balloons (defined as the widest possible tires, operated at the lowest permitted inflation commensurate with weight and road surface), you also move the dividing point between suspended and unsuspended weight closer to the contact patch because now a vastly greater part of the suspension is in the tyre, rather than, as with narrow, highly inflated tyres, in the hands, arms, back and small of the back of the rider where all these forces resolve with high-pressure narrow tyres; assuming of course that frame is stiff, which these days isn't a problem with the sort of bike on which one would contemplate fitting balloons. That is not only a large increase in comfort, but makes a substantial difference in the handling of the bike because the lever arm for sliding the bike out from under you in a turn is now so much shorter and thus less efficient. Maybe with a recliner one could even get the two pivots of the centre of gravity and the split between the suspended and unsuspended weight to coincide, though I'm not instantly sure whether such a bike wouldn't be too nervy to ride outside a racetrack.

Andre Jute
In the vectors of my mind -- with thanks to Alan & Marilyn Bergman and Michel Legrand

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 18:33:52 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 2 January 2020 20:59:50 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:02:28 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times.

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers.

- Frank Krygowski

No advantage, per se, but a fork a great deal larger than the tire
does look sort of "dorkie" and, for the weight weenies, there is a
very small weight advantage to the narrower crown.

Remember that "back in the day" narrow tires were pretty much
"standard". I used to use "sew ups" that might have been 23mm and I
have seem but never used 19mm tires :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

My folding Michelin Pro Comp slicks back in the mid-1980s were 19mm and had fantastic grip even on white painted road stripes, hard-packed snow or ice. Of course I was a bit lighter then. If I could get a pair of those tires in good condition I'd put them on my fast bike.

As far as front forks and narrow tires go, I think that a shorter legged fork would be stiffer than a long legged fork with wide tires and fender clearance; all things being equal that is ie. same diameter legs..

Cheers

As far as front fork stiffness goes, remember that the usual method of
fitting fork blades is to cut the small end to fit the dropout lugs
that you have and than cut the large end for length. Thus a long fork
blade has more of it's large diameter to support it's longer length...
at least in theory :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:59:58 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:23:05 PM UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times..

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.


Lou

"Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width." This surprises me. It isn't the width by itself, it is the width and the associated possibility of lowering the pressure that comes with width, seriously increasing the rider's comfort. There are additional benefits of greater tyre width and lower pressure, for instance decreased rolling resistance. One interrelated result that interests me particularly --because in automobiles my primary interest was in suspensions -- is the noticeably better roadholding and handling characteristics of the wider and less highly pressurised tyres as compared to those which are narrower and more highly inflated.

Andre Jute
I'll try anything once

Imagine that there are people who like fast group rides on a road bike or time trials on a aero bike. It seems hard for you, but just try. Should they run 60 mm wide big apples on their bike becaus e of all the advantages you mentioned of these tires? I'm going for a ride today. I plan to do it fast and it going to be windy and probably with a little drizzle. Should I take my utility/commuter bike with 33 mm wide sturdy and puncture resistant Schwalbe marathon racer tires, upright position, full fenders, kickstand, bike lock, chaincase and panniers? Or should I took my aero bike yesterday going to town to buy new socks wearing my normal clothes and shoes? I say no. One fits all is such a stupid concept in my view: compromises all the way. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

Lou

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 8:36:29 AM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:59:58 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:23:05 PM UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times.

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.


Lou

"Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width." This surprises me. It isn't the width by itself, it is the width and the associated possibility of lowering the pressure that comes with width, seriously increasing the rider's comfort. There are additional benefits of greater tyre width and lower pressure, for instance decreased rolling resistance. One interrelated result that interests me particularly --because in automobiles my primary interest was in suspensions -- is the noticeably better roadholding and handling characteristics of the wider and less highly pressurised tyres as compared to those which are narrower and more highly inflated.

Andre Jute
I'll try anything once

Imagine that there are people who like fast group rides on a road bike or time trials on a aero bike. It seems hard for you, but just try. Should they run 60 mm wide big apples on their bike becaus e of all the advantages you mentioned of these tires? I'm going for a ride today. I plan to do it fast and it going to be windy and probably with a little drizzle. Should I take my utility/commuter bike with 33 mm wide sturdy and puncture resistant Schwalbe marathon racer tires, upright position, full fenders, kickstand, bike lock, chaincase and panniers? Or should I took my aero bike yesterday going to town to buy new socks wearing my normal clothes and shoes? I say no. One fits all is such a stupid concept in my view: compromises all the way. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

Lou

I hadn't realised you were making a case, Lou. I was just explaining why wide tyres, more particularly low-pressure balloons, should appeal to a hedonist. And that already tells you I grasped quite firmly that like-thinkers are in a minority. What surprised me was my misunderstanding that an engineer would say that he couldn't see why wide tyres are advantageous on a number of parameters when, as you now say, you were talking about choice and personal preference. That isn't hard for me to understand at all. Apologies for misunderstanding you.

Andre Jute
Nice day, off cycling, ciao.

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:02:33 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times..

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers..

- Frank Krygowski

Because it is an irrelevant question. Tell me was there any given time in the last 20 years you couldn't buy a bike of your choice that could not handle a tire of your choice. If you come across a gravel bike that doesn't take a 32-35 mm tire than you have a point. Complaining that a time trial bike can't take a 35 mm tire is silly. The advantages of wider tires on a road bike is highly overrated. You can chosse for more comfort without the chance of pinch flats OR you can choose for less rolling resistance. Not both and than I don't even mention weight and air resistance.

Lou

Lou

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:28:45 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 8:36:29 AM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:59:58 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:23:05 PM UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."Â* - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times.

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.


Lou

"Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width." This surprises me.. It isn't the width by itself, it is the width and the associated possibility of lowering the pressure that comes with width, seriously increasing the rider's comfort. There are additional benefits of greater tyre width and lower pressure, for instance decreased rolling resistance. One interrelated result that interests me particularly --because in automobiles my primary interest was in suspensions -- is the noticeably better roadholding and handling characteristics of the wider and less highly pressurised tyres as compared to those which are narrower and more highly inflated.

Andre Jute
I'll try anything once

Imagine that there are people who like fast group rides on a road bike or time trials on a aero bike. It seems hard for you, but just try. Should they run 60 mm wide big apples on their bike becaus e of all the advantages you mentioned of these tires? I'm going for a ride today. I plan to do it fast and it going to be windy and probably with a little drizzle. Should I take my utility/commuter bike with 33 mm wide sturdy and puncture resistant Schwalbe marathon racer tires, upright position, full fenders, kickstand, bike lock, chaincase and panniers? Or should I took my aero bike yesterday going to town to buy new socks wearing my normal clothes and shoes? I say no. One fits all is such a stupid concept in my view: compromises all the way. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

Lou

I hadn't realised you were making a case, Lou. I was just explaining why wide tyres, more particularly low-pressure balloons, should appeal to a hedonist. And that already tells you I grasped quite firmly that like-thinkers are in a minority. What surprised me was my misunderstanding that an engineer would say that he couldn't see why wide tyres are advantageous on a number of parameters when, as you now say, you were talking about choice and personal preference. That isn't hard for me to understand at all. Apologies for misunderstanding you.

Andre Jute
Nice day, off cycling, ciao.

No problem. My point was that you can choose the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on now, in the past and I don't have to be a prophet to say that it will also be possible in the future.

Lou, boy it was a 'moist' ride

On 1/2/2020 7:59 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:02:28 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:46:35 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:08:34 PM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/01/2020 16.46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." - Yogi
Berra

But that doesn't stop Jan Heine from trying. Here's his effort for
January 2, 2020:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/

The only things I reckon he has right are wide tyres and e-bikes, and
around my way he's two years behind the times on both, so it wasn't hard.

Round my way Heine is ten years behind the times. And that's for 60mm tyres. If you define "wide tyres" as 37mm and up, as someone just did on another forum I read, Heine is 30 years, a whole generation, behind my times.

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers.


No advantage, per se, but a fork a great deal larger than the tire
does look sort of "dorkie" and, for the weight weenies, there is a
very small weight advantage to the narrower crown.

Remember that "back in the day" narrow tires were pretty much
"standard". I used to use "sew ups" that might have been 23mm and I
have seem but never used 19mm tires :-)


18mm tubulars have their place:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/grylls.jpg

(gold medal finish photo)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/3/2020 8:33 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:02:33 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers.

Because it is an irrelevant question. Tell me was there any given time in the last 20 years you couldn't buy a bike of your choice that could not handle a tire of your choice.

Well, since you ask: About three years ago, one of my best friends was
interested in upgrading her ancient and low-quality bike. My wife and I
were helping her choose. Our friend was originally interested in getting
a bike supposedly designed for women, possibly because our daughter is
very happy with her Terry road bike.

Eventually, we ended up at a bike shop in my area (not hers), one with a
pretty good reputation. We looked really hard at one by Trek (IIRC) but
it had 25mm tires. I know the country roads near my friend's house are
rough, so I asked the owner about 28 mm tires, since I could see the
clearance looked tight.

He said no, he wouldn't recommend 28s on that bike. He thought the
clearance was too tight, and anyway the brakes wouldn't open far enough
to clear an inflated 28mm tire.

End of the story? Andrew Muzi suggested a Bianchi Volpe with cantilever
brakes. She bought one of those and says she loves it.

If you come across a gravel bike that doesn't take a 32-35 mm tire than you have a point. Complaining that a time trial bike can't take a 35 mm tire is silly. The advantages of wider tires on a road bike is highly overrated. You can chosse for more comfort without the chance of pinch flats OR you can choose for less rolling resistance. Not both and than I don't even mention weight and air resistance.

She's not overly concerned with weight and certainly not with air
resistance. I actually do pay a bit of attention to air resistance, but
tire width is, even for most avid cyclists, a negligible contributor.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 8:56:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/3/2020 8:33 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:02:33 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Use the tire width suited for your riding style and road conditions you ride on. It has always been like that. Never used tires less than 2 and 2.5 inch wide on my ATB's. Never used tires less than 32 mm wide on my commuter. The difference might be that at the moment you can good quality wider tires. Don't understand the whole fuss about tire width.

For a while, the fuss was "No, of course you can't put 28s on that bike. It's
designed for 25s. It doesn't have clearance for 28s."

I remember asking what could possibly be the advantage in designing a bike to
prohibit reasonable tire choices. I don't remember any reasonable answers.

Because it is an irrelevant question. Tell me was there any given time in the last 20 years you couldn't buy a bike of your choice that could not handle a tire of your choice.

Well, since you ask: About three years ago, one of my best friends was
interested in upgrading her ancient and low-quality bike. My wife and I
were helping her choose. Our friend was originally interested in getting
a bike supposedly designed for women, possibly because our daughter is
very happy with her Terry road bike.

Eventually, we ended up at a bike shop in my area (not hers), one with a
pretty good reputation. We looked really hard at one by Trek (IIRC) but
it had 25mm tires. I know the country roads near my friend's house are
rough, so I asked the owner about 28 mm tires, since I could see the
clearance looked tight.

He said no, he wouldn't recommend 28s on that bike. He thought the
clearance was too tight, and anyway the brakes wouldn't open far enough
to clear an inflated 28mm tire.

End of the story? Andrew Muzi suggested a Bianchi Volpe with cantilever
brakes. She bought one of those and says she loves it.

If you come across a gravel bike that doesn't take a 32-35 mm tire than you have a point. Complaining that a time trial bike can't take a 35 mm tire is silly. The advantages of wider tires on a road bike is highly overrated. You can chosse for more comfort without the chance of pinch flats OR you can choose for less rolling resistance. Not both and than I don't even mention weight and air resistance.

She's not overly concerned with weight and certainly not with air
resistance. I actually do pay a bit of attention to air resistance, but
tire width is, even for most avid cyclists, a negligible contributor.

So you found one store with one bike that wouldn't take 28mm tires. I'm outraged!

Even Trek's top of the line Domane CF wonderbike takes 32mm tires with disc brakes. https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bi...d-bike-review/ Specialized's top of the line race bike takes 30mm tires. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/zFij51p3Ju4

Five years ago, at a Trek store, you could have gotten a Boone, 520, Crocket and god-knows what other Trek bikes with tire clearance. You need better stores. I can go down to River City and find a dozen road bikes with clearance for 30mm tires. Here's a nice Jamis on sale: https://store.rivercitybicycles.com/...-2015-6624.htm Clearance for 40mm tires. And that's a NOS 2015 bike, so you can work them even further down on the price. Alert your friend.

-- Jay Beattie.