on Bush and his crashes

Mark Hickey wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free, a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market, and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

I wouldn't want to live anywhere but the US. However, that
doesn't mean that we can't be better. I've posted some
statistics here before about how the US compares on some
objective measures.

We are usually in the top 3 in personal income, but beyond
that, we aren't ranked all that high.

Here are some more stats:

According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and
Development the US is:

- ranked 3rd of OECD countries in per capita Gross Domestic
Product
- ranked 14th in unemployment
- ranked 15th in the literacy of 15-year-olds
- ranked 16th in education spending as a percentage of GDP
(this ranking included several non-OECD countries - several
of which outspent the US including Israel, Jamaica,
Malaysia, Tunisia, and Zimbabwe.)
- ranked 16th for women and 18th for men in life expectancy
- ranked 19th in infant mortality

The OECD member countries a

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Korea
Luxembourg
Mexico
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Slovak Republic
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

Todd Kuzma wrote:

in article , Mark Hickey at
wrote on 8/9/04 8:37 PM:

Let me sum it up this way. You're wrong. Hard work and ability are
what is needed to get ahead. Doesn't mean that you can go into the
wrong business and do so (say, bicycles...) though... ;-)

So, are you saying that every single American is born with the exact same
opportunities?

What a ridiculous question. It is the goal of _equality of result_ that
you seek, even if that equality means poverty and loss of freedom rather
than unequal prosperity and its associated liberty. Morever, it is a
mirage since some animals always end up being more equal than others.
You sure are willing to pay a high price for poverty. LOL


Alice in Wonderland:
"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." -- Dodo
"But who is to give the prizes?" -- chorus of voices


Orwell's Animal Farm:
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Tom Sherman wrote:

Todd Kuzma wrote:

in article , gwhite at
wrote on 8/9/04 11:49 AM:

Running in circles in the Caucus Race, Tom Sherman wrote:


It sounds like the Chinese need a communist revolution to improve the
lot of the workers.


Peacetime body count:
China (Communist) 35,200,000 1949-present

You are an idiot.


First, I think that Tom was just pointing out the irony of the current
situation.

Exactly. I was pointing out that the "communist" system in China was
communist in name only. What it used to be was a totalitarian command
economy, but with the introduction of private enterprise it has morphed
into fascism.

You are an idiot.

Tom Sherman wrote:

David Reuteler wrote:

Tom Sherman wrote:

David Reuteler wrote:


Tom Sherman wrote:


When over 40% of a person's paycheck goes towards student loan payments,
it is very difficult to save for a home purchase, retirement or some
other purpose - say becoming a LBS owner or small volume bicycle
manufacturer.


whoa .. where'd you get that number from? being generous say $46,000 student
loan (the max for an independent student for their undergrad) over 10 years
(the max) at 6% is $510 a month. for that to be 40% of your take home
paycheck you'd have to be making $15,300/yr after taxes or roughly $19,000/yr
before (given a 15% federal tax + 5% state at this income level) which ain't
middle class in my book. actually if you have two kids and a spouse it's
at the poverty level.

Try older undergraduate GSL/Stafford loans and newer graduate
Direct/Ford loans at a total of $60,000.


tom, that still doesn't change my point.

$666 a month for an income of $17,500 a year after taxes .. or about $22,000
before to make payments 40% of your after tax income. brother, if you spent
$60,000 on an education to make $22k you either made the wrong choice or
income wasn't even part of the equation. if it's the latter your complaint
is with your chosen occupation.

You are forgetting payroll taxes and possibly the lower deductions for
those with no dependents. Also, the interest rates on the older loan
programs (and unsubsidized loans) are higher. My example was $40,000
gross, $27,000 net, and $850/month in loan payments.


The reason you have problems is because you made a bad investment.
That's your fault, no one elses. You are whining that your own
decisions that didn't pan out and want someone to bail you out. One can
only wonder why someone would take out $60k of high interest loans to
gross $40k/yr for year after year.

Declare bankruptcy (liquidate) if the business plan (your career) didn't
work out as needed for ROI. That's what bankruptcy is for: a new
start. Yes, federally insured loans can be erased after 7 years and
"good faith" effort to re-pay.

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
Tom Sherman wrote:

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free, a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market, and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

Are you saying that human life and dignity are not as important as low tax rates?

Tom Sherman wrote:

gwhite wrote:


Tom Sherman wrote:

David Reuteler wrote:


Do you consider the equivalent of 5 to 10 years of discretionary income
in student loans after finishing school to be a reasonable burden?


If it isn't worth it, then they shouldn't borrow the money. If they
decide to take out the loan that is exactly what they are saying: the
burden was worth it.


I was referring to background, not current status. A person from the
lower class will be paying off student loans and may not be able to save
up for a down payment on a house at the same time. A person from the
middle class would not have the same student loan burden, and would in
many cases receive financial assistance from their family in purchasing
a home. In addition, they will eventually inherit a substantial amount
of property, while someone from a lower class background will not.


"Everybody has won, and all must have prizes." -- Dodo
"But who is to give the prizes?" -- chorus of voices

"Equality of results" is the big lie that ends up with millions of dead
bodies when practiced. Attempting to equalize results is a mirage,
wholly discredited empirically if not in pop politics....

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free,..

Absolutely absurd. Nothing is "free." Moreover, there still existed
within these countries enough capitalism (private property) to ensure
sustained democracy and its check on tyranny.

...a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market,...

There is no such thing as an "abuse of the free market" -- transactions
are voluntary in a free market. There is only benefit from trade --
otherwise no one would do it. The government's role is to enforce
contracts. That is, I can't say I'm selling shoes when they are really
sandals. I can't write checks to a seller that bounce. You aren't
"abused" in the market place because *you* decided to participate. If
you buy a dress and later decide you don't like the color, then TS.

and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

http://www.washingtontimes.com/comme...2740-9436r.htm

"The overall conclusion is that the burden of the welfare state is high
indeed, both in economic terms and from the perspective of human
dignity. Consequently, if we want to promote economic efficiency, growth
and dignity the size of the state should be radically decreased."
http://www.ratio.se/pdf/wp/nk_dignity.pdf

http://www.instapundit.com/archives/003564.php


If people in the US realized what a poor deal they were getting relative
to the overall wealth of the country, there would be a “Velvet
Revolution” at the next election, with the current Democratic Party
ending up on the far right (as it would be in Western Europe).

That's just great -- a velvet casket for everyone.

"Frequently referred to as a "benevolent" socialist or social democratic
state, to distinguish it from the run-of-the-mill socialist butcher
shop, such as Cuba, China, North Korea, the USSR, and most of Africa,
Latin and Central America, and Asia, Sweden is the Promised Land of the
Left. Where the USSR was a departure from the genius of Karl Marx,
Sweden shows the potential."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html


"In truth, the Swedish economy is pretty similar to the politics of its
rock bands: avowedly socialist by most outward appearances, but more
than willing to embrace the machinery of capitalism behind the scenes in
order to make the whole thing work....

By the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Swedish economy was tanking.
Western Europe's post-war capitalist economies caught and passed Sweden
relatively quickly. And by the 1980s, Sweden was on the verge of
collapse. Businesses fled for more friendly tax jurisdictions in
continental Europe and the U.S. Sweden experienced a brain drain as its
sharpest minds fled to market-driven economies that rewarded knowledge
and know-how with wealth. Entrepreneurs in Sweden were painted as
pariahs. Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad told Fortune magazine that Sweden's
tax bureaucrats and politicians at the time routinely accused him of
'using people' and 'just wanting to make a profit.'"
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2210

http://www.sntp.net/education/sweden.htm
http://www.usiap.org/Viewpoints/Zgen...ndAmerica.html
http://www.libertyhaven.com/countrie...edenmodel.html
http://www.libertyhaven.com/countrie...densempty.html
http://www.mit.edu/people/fjk/essays/sweden.html
http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/Sweden.htm


************************************************** *******************
* "Surely that is one answer to the perennial mystery of why *
* collectivism, with its demonstrated record of producing tyranny *
* and misery, is so widely regarded as superior to individualism, *
* with its demonstrated record of producing freedom and plenty. The *
* argument for collectivism is simple if false; it is an immediate *
* emotional argument. The argument for individualism is subtle and *
* sophisticated; it is an indirect rational argument. And the *
* emotional faculties are more highly developed in most men than *
* the rational, paradoxically or especially even in those who *
* regard themselves as intellectuals" - Milton Friedman *
************************************************** *******************

Tom Sherman wrote:


With all the above education, work and personal sacrifice, I can pay off
my student loans in 6 or 7 years instead of 10.

What are you whining about?

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
Tom Sherman wrote:

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free, a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market, and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

Are you saying that human life and dignity are not as important as low
tax rates? [No sarcasm, a serious question].

Thomas Reynolds wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
Tom Sherman wrote:

Yes, look at the millions murdered in post WW2 Scandinavia and Benelux,
where higher education is free, a minimum income, health care and
housing are guaranteed, workers are protected from the abuses of the
free market, and poverty is practically non-existent. That is why all
the people in those countries can not wait to emigrate to the US. [End
sarcasm].

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

Are you saying that human life and dignity are not as important as low tax rates?

Not surprisingly, they go together:

"The overall conclusion is that the burden of the welfare state is high
indeed, both in economic terms and from the perspective of human
dignity. Consequently, if we want to promote economic efficiency, growth
and dignity the size of the state should be radically decreased."
http://www.ratio.se/pdf/wp/nk_dignity.pdf

"Mark Hickey" writes:

Wanna tell us all what the tax rates are in Scandanavia and Benelux?

Stop the presses. This just in: social justice requires taxation.


--
Nora Lenderby