Front cracking noise

Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 7:11:41 PM UTC-8, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that* concerned with cost in that regard.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

Steve, you have to get used to the first response of virtually everyone on this group to say, "You're wrong" regardless that they haven't even a passing interest or bit of knowledge about the subject. I've had two people here telling me I don't know how to program after 40+ years in he business and the two that said this weren't in the business.

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 11:40:00 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.
Aluminum wiring is indeed cheaper. But you have to use almost pure aluminum because most additives make aluminum more brittle.

Also because of its higher resistance you have to use heavier wiring than you would with copper. The more wire diameter the more free electrons to offset the additional resistance.

I do not personally like it and would not use it because it is fragile and because the usual fluxes are not very effective over time.

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight when they use iron magnets?

Also - when someone like Weeks states that he saw a hub configured with a sealed bearing on one side and a cone bearing on the other precisely why would you say he hadn't? Were you there looking over his shoulder and saw something that he didn't? While I admit I've never seen a standard hub of that nature, I only saw Dyno hubs from long ago and am not going to counter someone else unless I personally know the specific hub they are speaking of.

So to me it appears that you're the one pulling something out of their ass.

writes:

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 11:40:00 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the
hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.
Aluminum wiring is indeed cheaper. But you have to use almost pure
aluminum because most additives make aluminum more brittle.

Also because of its higher resistance you have to use heavier wiring
than you would with copper. The more wire diameter the more free
electrons to offset the additional resistance.

You have to use *thicker* wiring, but it is lighter, that is, less mass
per unit length than copper. I believe this is a serious consideration
for long distance power transmission lines.

I do not personally like it and would not use it because it is fragile
and because the usual fluxes are not very effective over time.

--

writes:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Also - when someone like Weeks states that he saw a hub configured
with a sealed bearing on one side and a cone bearing on the other
precisely why would you say he hadn't? Were you there looking over his
shoulder and saw something that he didn't? While I admit I've never
seen a standard hub of that nature, I only saw Dyno hubs from long ago
and am not going to counter someone else unless I personally know the
specific hub they are speaking of.

Mr. Weeks *said* that he just *guessed* that the hub, which he admitted never
having seen, had one sealed bearing and one loose ball bearing.

I actually *have* seen the inside of one representative of the class of
hubs under discussion, Weeks has never claimed that he did.

--

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 12:18:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Also - when someone like Weeks states that he saw a hub configured
with a sealed bearing on one side and a cone bearing on the other
precisely why would you say he hadn't? Were you there looking over his
shoulder and saw something that he didn't? While I admit I've never
seen a standard hub of that nature, I only saw Dyno hubs from long ago
and am not going to counter someone else unless I personally know the
specific hub they are speaking of.

Mr. Weeks *said* that he just *guessed* that the hub, which he admitted never
having seen, had one sealed bearing and one loose ball bearing.

I actually *have* seen the inside of one representative of the class of
hubs under discussion, Weeks has never claimed that he did.

--

I'm perfectly sure that because dynohubs are used almost exclusively on very moderately priced citybikes that they do it entirely for the cost.

Just called my brother the electrician. He says that the corrosion products of aluminum wire are flammable and that is why they cause house fires that aluminum does not. The house wiring I always did before used conduit which I liked because you could always pull new larger gauge wire in if you needed additional load. The weakness is that you have to install EVERYTHING before the walls are closed. My brother uses this covered copper wire that looks like a flexible conduit. I don't like that stuff because like open wires you have to replace the entire thing to increase the current load.

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 12:18:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Also - when someone like Weeks states that he saw a hub configured
with a sealed bearing on one side and a cone bearing on the other
precisely why would you say he hadn't? Were you there looking over his
shoulder and saw something that he didn't? While I admit I've never
seen a standard hub of that nature, I only saw Dyno hubs from long ago
and am not going to counter someone else unless I personally know the
specific hub they are speaking of.

Mr. Weeks *said* that he just *guessed* that the hub, which he admitted never
having seen, had one sealed bearing and one loose ball bearing.

I actually *have* seen the inside of one representative of the class of
hubs under discussion, Weeks has never claimed that he did.

--

Rady - "representative of the class" does not mean the specific unit - who here has already said that some of the dynohubs use sealed bearings? I see no reason to not suppose there were units that used cones bearings only on the output side.


Rare earth magnets weigh almost the same as iron magnets but are very much stronger so that you can use smaller magnets. I think that Samarium is heavier than iron.

writes:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 12:18:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Steve Weeks writes:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical
about aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll
take your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

You speculated (a polite term for "pulled out of your ass") the notion
that there was one cartridge bearing and one loose ball bearing, and
that copper was used for wiring instead of aluminum. I know from
personal experience that both of those are simply wrong, and said so as
a service to the OP, and to the Usenet public at large.

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.

--

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Also - when someone like Weeks states that he saw a hub configured
with a sealed bearing on one side and a cone bearing on the other
precisely why would you say he hadn't? Were you there looking over his
shoulder and saw something that he didn't? While I admit I've never
seen a standard hub of that nature, I only saw Dyno hubs from long ago
and am not going to counter someone else unless I personally know the
specific hub they are speaking of.

Mr. Weeks *said* that he just *guessed* that the hub, which he admitted never
having seen, had one sealed bearing and one loose ball bearing.

I actually *have* seen the inside of one representative of the class of
hubs under discussion, Weeks has never claimed that he did.

--

Rady - "representative of the class" does not mean the specific unit -
who here has already said that some of the dynohubs use sealed
bearings? I see no reason to not suppose there were units that used
cones bearings only on the output side.

I meant representative of the class of *Shimano* dynamo hubs. I'm
fairly sure all of them use loose ball bearings, but there is a range of
products. Mr. Weeks based his opinion on having repaired a *Sanyo*
dynamo hub.

Rare earth magnets weigh almost the same as iron magnets but are very
much stronger so that you can use smaller magnets. I think that
Samarium is heavier than iron.

--

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:09:05 -0500,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/14/2019 12:41 PM, wrote:

The noise you were discussing sounded like a broken ball
bearing.

I remember seeing a friend's bearing ball (in his pedal) that
broke cleanly in two.

I'm amazed that it's possible, but it obviously happens.

I had a single ball break roughly in half, many years ago;
probably on my old Schwinn LeTour IV. I think it was in the
bottom bracket, but it might have been a hub.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA