Front cracking noise

On 2/15/2019 4:46 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:09:05 -0500,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/14/2019 12:41 PM, wrote:

The noise you were discussing sounded like a broken ball
bearing.

I remember seeing a friend's bearing ball (in his pedal) that
broke cleanly in two.

I'm amazed that it's possible, but it obviously happens.

I had a single ball break roughly in half, many years ago;
probably on my old Schwinn LeTour IV. I think it was in the
bottom bracket, but it might have been a hub.

As I said, it obviously happens. But I really wonder about how. The
steel used in ball bearings is usually one of the very strongest steels
available. I've toured a bearing manufacturing plant, and the quality
control is astonishing. And the design of a bearing race is supposed to
allow sharing the load among at least three balls at a time.

They sometimes split. But it seems weird to me that they do.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 7:09:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:

I suspect that Shimano uses aluminum wiring to reduce weight. It's hard
to sell heavy bike parts. Reducing cost is also considered a good
thing, for consumer goods even a few cents saved in parts costs matters
quite a lot.

When, as frequently happens, I know nothing about a topic under
discussion, I just don't say anything. That's better than trying to
make the world stupider.

Worst: semi-informed and busy making the world a better place.

There is so little wiring in a dyno hub that weight is not an
issue. These are almost entirely used on citybikes that are not much
sold so they are taking the cheap path. You're talking about weight
when they use iron magnets?

They use rare earth permanent magnets for the stator, and a soft iron
core for the rotor. I don't really know why Shimano uses aluminum, nor,
I suspect, does anyone in this discussion.

Just investigate which series Shimano first switched from Cu to Al. It
wasn't the cheaper 20 or 30 series, but the 70+ lines that had to shed some
weight, NOT cost, to try to rival the SON. So, as always, it's al(l) the
weight weenies' fault.

--
Just my https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...93/2yen-M3.jpg

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:01:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers

You are being a little ridiculous, aren't you. All commercial wiring
used in the U.S. is rated for it's voltage and amperage carrying
capacity. Do you actually believe that the aluminum wire makers have
somehow coherence the rating authorities into over rating aluminum
wire?

Or perhaps the answer is that a large number of ignorant people
overload their home electrical circuits and then blame the resulting
fire on the wires?
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 9:08:29 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers


I wouldn't buy a house with aluminum wiring, and yet most of the power
system up to your house is all aluminum wires.

According to a number of studies done here in Canada a house with aluminium wiring is 55 times more likely to have a fire than one with copper wiring. Therefore, NO! I would NOT buy a house with aluminium wiring.

Cheers

You mean that a house in Canada "code wired" with aluminum wire is
more likely to burn down due to the wiring than a house "code wired"
with copper wires?

You much have very shoddy electrical codes there if that is solely due
to the aluminum wiring.

My guess is that the Canadian electrical codes are not at fault.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 15:12:59 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

writes:

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 11:40:00 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the
hub I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.
Aluminum wiring is indeed cheaper. But you have to use almost pure
aluminum because most additives make aluminum more brittle.

Also because of its higher resistance you have to use heavier wiring
than you would with copper. The more wire diameter the more free
electrons to offset the additional resistance.

You have to use *thicker* wiring, but it is lighter, that is, less mass
per unit length than copper. I believe this is a serious consideration
for long distance power transmission lines.

I worked for about a year as an "external Electrician" at a USAF
airbase in Thailand and they used, in some sections of the base all
aluminum external wiring. It was a long time ago but as I recollect
the gauge was the same as the copper wire used in other sections of
the base.

I suspect that much of the external wiring was done by local
contractors working on fixed rate contracts but additionally I know
that the Air force Inspectors were well aware of the differences
between aluminum and copper wiring as when a "tie line" was built to
allow two sections on the base to use the same generator plant the
Inspector caught the contractor connecting aluminum wires directly to
copper connections and the contractor had to change all the connection
fittings.

Note that the Inspectors found a fault with only the connections, not
the wiring.

--

Cheers,

John B.

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:01:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers

You are being a little ridiculous, aren't you. All commercial wiring
used in the U.S. is rated for it's voltage and amperage carrying
capacity. Do you actually believe that the aluminum wire makers have
somehow coherence the rating authorities into over rating aluminum
wire?

Or perhaps the answer is that a large number of ignorant people
overload their home electrical circuits and then blame the resulting
fire on the wires?
--

Cheers,

John B.


Or that early aluminum home wiring systems didn't properly take into
account the oxidation that always forms on aluminum, and its greater
thermal expansion, resulting in dangerous high impedance connections.

The fact that aluminum is used from the generating plant right up to your
doorstep indicates that aluminum can be used safely for high voltage, high
current circuits. However, either because the home aluminum wiring systems
weren't properly designed, or because installers didn't install them
properly, they caused a disproportionate number of house fires, which
essentially resulting in aluminum house wiring disappearing from the
market.

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 3:00:16 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2019 4:46 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:09:05 -0500,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/14/2019 12:41 PM, wrote:

The noise you were discussing sounded like a broken ball
bearing.

I remember seeing a friend's bearing ball (in his pedal) that
broke cleanly in two.

I'm amazed that it's possible, but it obviously happens.

I had a single ball break roughly in half, many years ago;
probably on my old Schwinn LeTour IV. I think it was in the
bottom bracket, but it might have been a hub.

As I said, it obviously happens. But I really wonder about how. The
steel used in ball bearings is usually one of the very strongest steels
available. I've toured a bearing manufacturing plant, and the quality
control is astonishing. And the design of a bearing race is supposed to
allow sharing the load among at least three balls at a time.

They sometimes split. But it seems weird to me that they do.


--
- Frank Krygowski

There is NO profitable way of quality controlling the possible inclusions of the carbon into iron to make steel without internal bits of carbon which make the steel brittle. The new Oakland span of the bay bridge has every piece of the structure compromised by steel failures.

The latest transit center in San Francisco started showing cracks that would lead to a total collapse of the structure the day before it opened. Railroad rails are wearing far faster than they used to because of these carbon inclusions.

The reasons that steel was so much more reliable than it is today is because of the hundreds of years of experience in making steel by the people that were making it.

The destruction of the American steel industry lost a great deal of this personal and unique experience. Automating the manufacturing is simply no replacement for the actual mind watching the color and mixing ratios of the alloying process.

You CAN test steel tubing for bicycles at reasonable prices via X-ray and ultrasound. I suspect that is what Columbus does. And I don't believe that Reynolds did that and I saw 531 failures of this sort.

But sheer numbers of ball bearings prevents that.

I have had quite a few ball bearings break in exactly the same manner. This usually gouges the hell out of the races and they are usually a total loss.. Though I have cleaned and greased them and just put in new bearings on lightly loaded applications. Perhaps a front dynohub would fit that description.

On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 9:08:29 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers


I wouldn't buy a house with aluminum wiring, and yet most of the power
system up to your house is all aluminum wires.

According to a number of studies done here in Canada a house with aluminium wiring is 55 times more likely to have a fire than one with copper wiring. Therefore, NO! I would NOT buy a house with aluminium wiring.

Cheers

You mean that a house in Canada "code wired" with aluminum wire is
more likely to burn down due to the wiring than a house "code wired"
with copper wires?

You much have very shoddy electrical codes there if that is solely due
to the aluminum wiring.

My guess is that the Canadian electrical codes are not at fault.


I'm not an expert but having heard the same thing once,
before Sir mentioned it, I was curious and found:

http://completeelectrical.biz/alumin...homes-options/

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/proble...ity-86313.html

https://definedelectric.com/aluminum-wire-retrofit/

That last link describes aluminum wire as 'old technology'!
There's old and then old. My house had pairs of bare 110v
wire on glass insulators nailed to joists.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 01:06:22 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:01:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers

You are being a little ridiculous, aren't you. All commercial wiring
used in the U.S. is rated for it's voltage and amperage carrying
capacity. Do you actually believe that the aluminum wire makers have
somehow coherence the rating authorities into over rating aluminum
wire?

Or perhaps the answer is that a large number of ignorant people
overload their home electrical circuits and then blame the resulting
fire on the wires?
--

Cheers,

John B.


Or that early aluminum home wiring systems didn't properly take into
account the oxidation that always forms on aluminum, and its greater
thermal expansion, resulting in dangerous high impedance connections.

The fact that aluminum is used from the generating plant right up to your
doorstep indicates that aluminum can be used safely for high voltage, high
current circuits. However, either because the home aluminum wiring systems
weren't properly designed, or because installers didn't install them
properly, they caused a disproportionate number of house fires, which
essentially resulting in aluminum house wiring disappearing from the
market.

Ask any electrical inspector how many times he has found a coin
inserted in the old screw type fuse blocks, or oversize fuse wire in
the even older type of fuses. I have even seen a piece of bent wire
inserted in a fuse box that was intended to prevent a conventional
"breaker" from tripping.

Or go to any housing supply store and see the "extension cords" that
allow 6 or 8 devices to be plugged into a single wall socket.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 19:15:25 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 9:08:29 AM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 2:40:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:11:39 -0800 (PST), Steve Weeks
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-6, Radey Shouman wrote:

Almost all of this is unfounded speculation.

There was no speculation at all; well, except for being skeptical about
aluminum wire. I haven't serviced a Shimano dynohub, so I'll take
your word for that. But aluminum has only 61% of the electrical
conductivity of copper, which would make it a strange choice. It's
cheaper than copper, but Shimano doesn't strike me as being *that*
concerned with cost in that regard.

Aluminum wire is quite commonly used in "exterior electrical works" -
house wiring, etc., for two reasons, (1) it is lighter in weight for a
given gauge and (2) it is substantially cheaper then copper. It is
common enough that aluminum -copper and copper -aluminum connectors
are commonly stocked by commercial electrical suppliers.
See: https://bit.ly/2SytkSg


By guess is that Shimano uses the (1) reason :-)

Also, why are you so defensive? I said at the outset that my overhaul
was of a different hub, but was presented as an example of a dynohub
repair.

Dan Burkhart has a video of a Shimano dynohub repair he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXptXRqxj9c
It looks like cup/cone bearings as you indicated. Also, unlike the hub
I serviced, there was no need to unsolder the output wire!
Hope this helps.
--

Cheers,

John B.

Aluminium wiring has a VERY BAD reputation in house wiring due to the
number of fires it has caused. I would NEVER buy a house that had aluminium wiring in it.

Do a search with: aluminium wiring and fires" to see just how dangerous that crap is.

Cheers


I wouldn't buy a house with aluminum wiring, and yet most of the power
system up to your house is all aluminum wires.

According to a number of studies done here in Canada a house with aluminium wiring is 55 times more likely to have a fire than one with copper wiring. Therefore, NO! I would NOT buy a house with aluminium wiring.

Cheers

You mean that a house in Canada "code wired" with aluminum wire is
more likely to burn down due to the wiring than a house "code wired"
with copper wires?

You much have very shoddy electrical codes there if that is solely due
to the aluminum wiring.

My guess is that the Canadian electrical codes are not at fault.


I'm not an expert but having heard the same thing once,
before Sir mentioned it, I was curious and found:

http://completeelectrical.biz/alumin...homes-options/

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/proble...ity-86313.html

https://definedelectric.com/aluminum-wire-retrofit/

That last link describes aluminum wire as 'old technology'!
There's old and then old. My house had pairs of bare 110v
wire on glass insulators nailed to joists.

Glass, if I'm not mistaken was the high end installation. The low end
was ceramic insulators with what appeared to be asphalt insulated
wires :-)

My Grandfather's house built in 18-- something was like that. An
uncle, who was a professional electrician, estimated that it might be
cheaper to build a new house rather then change the wiring to meet
code standards :-(
--

Cheers,

John B.