Latest on Australian Mandatory Helmet Law propaganda

On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 3:26:04 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 6:17:36 PM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 2:59:10 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:52:38 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you disagree, put some data up and let's discuss it.

Hmm. See, Franki-boy, not only have I put up data, which you refused to discuss because even you know you have no answers to such conclusive data, my data proved:
1. That cycling is safer than you claimed before you started using my figures, which coincidentally also proved you don't know how to handle statistics, and through your clumsiness were making cycling seem more dangerous than it is.
2.That a substantial number of cyclists' lives, up to perhaps 400, can be saved in America every year if helmets were mandatory, which could come to more than half of the cyclists killed on American roads every year, a conclusion you inhumanely dismissed as irrelevant because so few cyclists die every year that it isn't worth saving half of them... For future reference, Franki-boy, the correct answer is that even one life saved is worth the effort: it could be your life.
3. That it is therefore counterproductive dimwits like you who put people off cycling, by contributing to the belief that cycling is dangerous, and that the self-appointed "spokesmen for cycling" do not care about the lives of cyclists.

You want to be the friend of cycling, Franki-boy, you should shut the **** up, for good.

You won't, of course. You're too full of yourself, which is the same as saying you're too full of ****.

Andre Jute
Professional publicist

I do not in the least believe that a single life could be saved by helmets other than very far outliers on the curve.

The New York study gives the lie to this overly obvious conclusion.

That pedestrian and bicyclists deaths track each other so closely shows that to be a truism.

And this is the cause of the error. You need to look at the constituent components of the incidents.

Like you appear to be saying, I do not believe cycling to be dangerous in general but that is only in comparison to driving which is not safe at all.

That's a fair enough summary of what I'm saying. But this is another overly obvious conclusion from the numbers I worked up, which everyone accepts (or at least don't argue against). See, even with the speed differential, an automobile still has four wheels for inherent stability whereas a bicycle has only two and is inherently unstable, and, most of all, the bicycle offers the rider very little protection, whereas a car is a steel cage designed with crumple zones to absorb impact before it reaches the driver or his passengers plus airbags and padding everywhere. So, in reality, cycling should be far more dangerous than motoring, but the figures, even closely analysed, doin't show this.

I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I really can't remember. But as I pointed out somewhere - The largest cause of accidental deaths is traumatic head injuries - you have a higher chance of dying in a car crash wearing a seat belt and equipped with air bags than you do riding a bicycle. So why do these "studies" not mention this and why aren't mandatory helmet laws demanded for cars? Because ANYONE that suggested such a thing would be laughed out of any assembly.

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 4:11:52 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 22/2/19 5:10 am, jbeattie wrote:


If you
had raced for 20 years, I could also guaranty that you would have
crashed. Anybody who rides daily will at some time crash.

Yep. I've raced and crashed, and crashed a few times just out riding.
On a few occasions I've crashed into cars and ruined bicycle frames.

A helmet has never saved me though, and where I live they have been
mandatory since 1990/91. I don't have any broken helmets or scars on my
head from crashing either.

--
JS

Well, I've broken quite a few helmets but in such a manner that it was plain that it was because the helmet construction allowed failure of the helmets from relatively minor strikes. The ONLY case I which my helmet had a direct blow was in a case in which I would have had almost the same injury had I not been wearing a helmet.

What I do believe that helmets do is to protect your head from being scraped, cut or bruised in these minor crashes and so I recommend them.

Perhaps it is because I have crashed so many times in my cycling career that I'm certainly not frightened of falling like so many cyclists appear to be that causes this claim of helmets being absolutely necessary to save lives.

My falls have ALL been under conditions where anyone else would have fallen as well. That case where I slipped off of the road and crashed trying to jump back up on the pavement could be thrown into my face but if you had cars passing you closely at 45 mph I submit that you might make the very same error. You can say that the fall I did while riding into shadows where a tree had lifted the asphalt 3" would not have occurred if I didn't have the headset so tight that the fork would not return fast enough, but that could be made by any bike shop mechanic and I have seen exactly that and after my problem have fixed them for people. I do not understand how I slide off of the road and into that stone culvert but I suspect it was flexing in the aluminum wheels because the same sort of bike doesn't do this with carbon wheels. So I was going too fast for the conditions - who hasn't been guilty of that?

On Friday, February 22, 2019 at 6:40:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Also there is a very high offset in America for the traffic laws not being enforced. So people that are driving the speed limit are greatly endangered by people driving 20 mph over the speed limit and weaving unpredictably from lane to lane often pulling into the safe distance you are holding behind another car and then slamming on the brakes. If you get in an accident by running into the back of these people you are STILL supposedly at fault unless you have a video of it to present in court.

On 2/22/2019 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that
Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe
are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers.Â* Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents per
population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

I think fatalities per km is a better metric.

The U.S. doesn't do really well by that one, either, especially
considering that so many of our mileage is on super-safe limited access
roads.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/22/2019 2:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/22/2019 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that
Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe
are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers.Â* Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular
practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you
wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents per
population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

I think fatalities per km is a better metric.

The U.S. doesn't do really well by that one, either, especially
considering that so many of our mileage is on super-safe limited access
roads.

By the way:

A few days ago, I was on my bike in the right lane at a traffic light,
waiting for green to cross a very busy street. I was first at the light,
and a white car was at my left, in a left-turn-only lane. This is at the
center of our village, where three state routes intersect at somewhat
odd angles.

The light turned green and I started out fairly quickly to go straight
across the five-lane road. To my surprise, the white car did not turn
left. It stayed right alongside me.

I looked over, and it was being driven by a young girl. She had both
hands on her cell phone and was steering with her knees. She turned left
in about 100 feet, onto a very short street that can take her only back
to the same place she'd have been if she made her proper left turn at
the light.

I wonder how many northern European drivers would pull a trick like
that. And I wonder what northern European cops would do if they observed it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 08:40:31 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

Well, looking at the reference one could select accidents per 1
billion vehicle kilometers in which case the numbers look like this:
U.S. - 7.3, U.K. - 0, Germany - 4.2, France - 5.8, The Netherlands -
4.7 and Switzerland - 3.2.
The U.K. falls to the bottom place and Germany and the Netherlands
switch places.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Friday, February 22, 2019 at 2:44:33 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 08:40:31 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

Well, looking at the reference one could select accidents per 1
billion vehicle kilometers in which case the numbers look like this:
U.S. - 7.3, U.K. - 0, Germany - 4.2, France - 5.8, The Netherlands -
4.7 and Switzerland - 3.2.
The U.K. falls to the bottom place and Germany and the Netherlands
switch places.

--
Cheers,
John B.

Great Britain doesn't maintain statistics in that manner so there is no reporting of them.

Using other statistics the United Kingdom has about 1/3rd that of the United States.

Moreover the large accident rates in the USA come from several reasons, 1. The US has MANY new drivers where one out of ten drivers have no license or have never had autos before. Looking at statistics from other countries where drivers tend to be new reflects this sort of thing - Egypt has death rates from auto accidents 2 1/2 times that of the US. 2. The police DO NOT enforce driving laws save where it is absolutely necessary. Most serious violations are issued AFTER and accident and not before. This is demanded by insurance companies and not by the state and local governments. 3. There is more police enforcement of stolen vehicles than of speeders which are 100 times as common. Again this is due to insurance companies and not state and local governments.

So the US is in entirely a different position than European governments as it pertains to traffic deaths.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 09:35:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2019 at 2:44:33 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 08:40:31 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

Well, looking at the reference one could select accidents per 1
billion vehicle kilometers in which case the numbers look like this:
U.S. - 7.3, U.K. - 0, Germany - 4.2, France - 5.8, The Netherlands -
4.7 and Switzerland - 3.2.
The U.K. falls to the bottom place and Germany and the Netherlands
switch places.

--
Cheers,
John B.

Great Britain doesn't maintain statistics in that manner so there is no reporting of them.

Using other statistics the United Kingdom has about 1/3rd that of the United States.

Moreover the large accident rates in the USA come from several reasons,
1. The US has MANY new drivers where one out of ten drivers have no
license or have never had autos before.

Actually that is wrong. See
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/...d-drivers-usa/
"The 2000s saw a continued slowdown with an average annual growth (of
driver's licenses) of 1.14%. The 2010s had the lowest annual growth
since the 1950s, at 0.81%

Goodness, you are batting almost 100%. Wrong (or lying) nearly all the
time.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 7:24:28 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 09:35:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2019 at 2:44:33 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 08:40:31 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/22/2019 3:25 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:00:48 +0100, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 22.02.2019 um 00:26 schrieb Andre Jute:
I have been told that driving in Germany was so dangerous that Americans often would not do so.

No. German drivers are good. The most dangerous drivers in Europe are the British.

I do not know any measure by which British Drivers are more dangerous
than German drivers. Yes, German drivers are good (to a very large
extent) but they risk compensate and use their skill for driving
recklessly fast.

What is certainly extremely dangerous is when American tourists rent a
fast car and try to drive like the Germans, without the regular practice
of looking at the traffic half a mile ahead that you need if you wish to
drive 50 mph faster than the guy on the other lane (you need to
anticipate lane changes perfectly for that driving style).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
The U.S. records 12.9 deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles (2013), the
U.K. - 5.1 and Germany 6.8. In comparison, France - 7.6, the
Netherlands - 6 and Switzerland 3.6.

Right, there's a good example of apples and oranges.

Annual miles/km driven are radically different so incidents
per population or per vehicle are misleading for risk analyses.

Well, looking at the reference one could select accidents per 1
billion vehicle kilometers in which case the numbers look like this:
U.S. - 7.3, U.K. - 0, Germany - 4.2, France - 5.8, The Netherlands -
4.7 and Switzerland - 3.2.
The U.K. falls to the bottom place and Germany and the Netherlands
switch places.

--
Cheers,
John B.

Great Britain doesn't maintain statistics in that manner so there is no reporting of them.

Using other statistics the United Kingdom has about 1/3rd that of the United States.

Moreover the large accident rates in the USA come from several reasons,
1. The US has MANY new drivers where one out of ten drivers have no
license or have never had autos before.

Actually that is wrong. See
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/...d-drivers-usa/
"The 2000s saw a continued slowdown with an average annual growth (of
driver's licenses) of 1.14%. The 2010s had the lowest annual growth
since the 1950s, at 0.81%

Goodness, you are batting almost 100%. Wrong (or lying) nearly all the
time.

--
Cheers,
John B.

I am curious to what you think as not true? You can SEE that the US birthrates are falling like crazy and the age at marriage has been increasing among Americans each year. Yet the population is rapidly increasing and largely from Hispanic countries, China and India - none of these people were from countries where the common man would be able to own and operate a vehicle.

Do you expect these people to act with any sense when driving for at least two generations?