Today's reading: Comparisons of danger

On 5/27/2019 2:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she
experiences it so you can stop your long essays.
They don't change anything. They only make you
look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you.
They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that
bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_
experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their
paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A
lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because
it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because
they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's
not all about perceived danger. Like I've said
before, I have some high mileage friends who gave
up riding on some roads just because they were
unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately
don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger
propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in
the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride
have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall
caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other.
You could put in an elevated cycling tube from
their homes, and they would find some other reason
for not riding. People who want to ride typically
can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle
facility to use -- or some other facility where
they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals
are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural
counties who want to make a point by making close
passes on shoulderless country roads with
ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding
lane center makes no difference except in terms of
how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique
makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun
would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant,
and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious?
To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently
in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who
honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who
honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards
for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be
bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by
even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a
"punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and
deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the
engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge
riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of
the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time
but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck"
country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the
"Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all
"tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three
off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres
of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one
client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the
boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton
plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course,
from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl
who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out
behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The
truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried
to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in
town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from
work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he
regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band,
IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's
not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The
sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend
was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come
into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are
cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty
active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly
there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a
horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the
folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I.
for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But
compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks,
rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who
were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in
1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his
parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the
war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well
have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me
stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have
somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama,
Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't
believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was
over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat
things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially
it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of
state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor,
Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no
credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live
in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space
the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll
have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and
the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I
told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells
me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he
likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice
that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an
engineer, then as a teacher. I saw far more blatant racial
prejudice than I've ever seen anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice.
But the ones who expressed their racism did it much more
frequently and openly than I've ever been used to.


You'd be surprised. Chicago for example:
https://www.noi.org/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 27 May 2019 11:33:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 9:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

He is a highly respected politician.

While highly respected is true (thank you for that, it means a lot
coming from you), it's also true that I am reviled by those trying to
exploit our city for their own financial gain.

I never really thought of running for office. I was coerced into
running, never believing I had any chance against the moneyed special
interests. My wife pleaded "just don't come in last."

Of course, of course.

American Civil War General William Tecumseh Sherman, recognized for
his outstanding command of military strategy, once said "I will not
accept if nominated and will not serve if elected."


For all the attacks I endured in the campaign, no one ever claimed that
I was a gorilla (or a guerilla). As a child during the Vietnam war I
remember thinking that it was really bad that North Vietnam was using
gorillas to fight.

Gorilla - Large ground-dwelling, predominantly herbivorous apes that
inhabit the forests of central Sub-Saharan Africa.
The name was derived from Ancient Greek "gorillai", meaning 'tribe of
hairy women', described by Hanno.

Guerilla - The word guerilla is another way to spell "guerrilla": a
member of a small, loosely organized force that fights a larger,
stronger force using tactics such as sabotage, raids, and ambushes.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I might note that your present President campaigned on building a
fence to keep "Them" out. "Them" being those who look different, talk
different, have few marketable skills, are poorly educated
and(according to Tom) are largely criminally inclined. Not different
at all from the attitude of a citizen of Bainbridge, Georgia seventy
years ago.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 5/27/2019 6:48 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I might note that your present President campaigned on building a
fence to keep "Them" out. "Them" being those who look different, talk
different, have few marketable skills, are poorly educated
and(according to Tom) are largely criminally inclined. Not different
at all from the attitude of a citizen of Bainbridge, Georgia seventy
years ago.


Your opinion perhaps but others see our President's position
as favoring immigration while opposed to uncontrolled mass
invasion. He speaks on the topic frequently but perhaps
there are no newspapers or radio where you live.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 27 May 2019 19:41:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/27/2019 6:48 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I might note that your present President campaigned on building a
fence to keep "Them" out. "Them" being those who look different, talk
different, have few marketable skills, are poorly educated
and(according to Tom) are largely criminally inclined. Not different
at all from the attitude of a citizen of Bainbridge, Georgia seventy
years ago.


Your opinion perhaps but others see our President's position
as favoring immigration while opposed to uncontrolled mass
invasion. He speaks on the topic frequently but perhaps
there are no newspapers or radio where you live.

True, but there never was an uncontrolled mass invasion, was there. In
fact I read that the numbers of aliens living in the U.S. seems to
have peaked in about 2007 and has declined ever since so unless your
latest president was elected 12 years ago he can hardly claim credit,
can he?

And yes, we got newspapers here, Shoot! we even got illegal immigrants
here but being a crude, cruel, undeveloped nation there seems to be no
problem at all about having them here... well except that they are
willing to work for substantially lower wages than our citizens. After
all, wages half the legal minimum wage in Thailand are twice, or more,
than a Cambodian, or Myanmarese could make working at home.

The difference is, of course, that in many countries, most of Asian at
least, if you don't work, you don't eat. It is that simple. No
assisted housing, no food stamps, no free medical care, no nothing.
Just your salary on payday. So those illegal workers that come here
come here with the expectation that they will be able to get a better
job than they might at home.

The only problem is that these illegal don't pay any taxes so the
government does try to limit them. Some they catch and ship back but
they also have passed a law that anyone that employees one illegal is
subject to a 10,000 baht fine and/or a year in jail. 10 illegals is
100,000 and so on.

That would be about one year's salary at minimum rates plus the one
year in jail. In U.S. terms that would be about a $26,666 fine plus
the year; per head.

One can only speculate whether following Thailand's lead might be
cheaper than building a wall...
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 26 May 2019 13:41:13 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Actually I had read, somewhere, that de-segregation was the name of
the game in America. Thus isn't a segregated bicycle path politically
incorrect?

"Separate but lethal".

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 5/27/2019 6:46 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

The difference is, of course, that in many countries, most of Asian at
least, if you don't work, you don't eat. It is that simple. No
assisted housing, no food stamps, no free medical care, no nothing.
Just your salary on payday.

Same in the U.S.. The only "free" medical care is in the emergency room
which can't turn people away if they can't pay, thanks to a law signed
by President Reagan. But while they can't get access to government
benefits there are a lot of non-profit organizations that provide
assistance.

The only problem is that these illegal don't pay any taxes so the
government does try to limit them.

In the U.S., most do pay federal taxes (with Social Security Numbers
that don't belong to them) but are unable to claim federal benefits,
they also forfeit billions of dollars into the Social Security system
but cannot ever collect benefits. In some states they are able to access
some state benefits, generally in the states that are doing well
economically and that desperately need the labor.

On 5/27/2019 7:48 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:33:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 1:43 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 23:58:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 19:34:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/26/2019 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:26:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/25/2019 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:


Much deleted

Everyone finds cycling as dangerous as he or she experiences it so you can stop your long essays. They don't change anything. They only make you look pedant.

Lou, the authors of the paper disagree with you. They point out that
propaganda has falsely convinced people that bicycling is dangerous; and
the result is that vast numbers of people _don't_ experience it. They
discuss this in some detail at the end of their paper.

What propaganda? What "vast numbers of people"? A lot of people don't ride in heavy traffic because it sucks -- or because they're lazy or even because they don't like riding around other cyclists. It's not all about perceived danger. Like I've said before, I have some high mileage friends who gave up riding on some roads just because they were unpleasant and stressful.

I know very few people, if any, who legitimately don't ride because of danger or the supposed danger propaganda. Most of the people who talk to me in the elevator about it being too dangerous to ride have a doughnut in one hand and a double-tall caramel machiato with whipped cream in the other. You could put in an elevated cycling tube from their homes, and they would find some other reason for not riding. People who want to ride typically can find a traffic calmed street or bicycle facility to use -- or some other facility where they feel comfortable.

Some roads I ride are dangerous because the locals are plain vicious -- the PU drivers in rural counties who want to make a point by making close passes on shoulderless country roads with ridiculously high speed limits (50-55mph). Riding lane center makes no difference except in terms of how long the honking lasts. No cycling technique makes a difference. Maybe Atavan or a shotgun would make a difference. It is plain unpleasant, and I totally understand riders staying away.

Truly? Are people in the U.S. actually so vicious? To deliberately
pass very closely when passing bicycles?

It happens. Since I started riding more prominently in the lane (away
from the gutter) it's been rare, but it happens.

I think there are several reasons. Some motorists who honestly don't
know that it's a bad practice. Some motorists who honestly don't know
how wide their car is. (Keep in mind, the standards for passing a U.S.
driver's license test are laughably low.)

More often, there are motorists who can't be bothered to delay
themselves for ten seconds. They try to squeeze by even though other
cars prevent safe passing clearance.

The worst are the type Jay describes, who execute a "punishment pass."
They object to a bicyclists using "their" road, and deliberately scare
the cyclist by passing close, often while roaring the engine, honking
the horn, etc.

Again, for me close passes are a rare event. For edge riders, they're
more common. And apparently in some redneck parts of the country they're
more common.

Admittedly I've not been in the U.S. for a long time but I don't
remember it like that at all.

I even lived in what you refer to as "Red Neck" country for quite a
number of years and I actually found the bulk of the "Red Necks to be
quite polite and very friendly. It wasn't all "tobacco road" either.
One bloke that used to come in the shop owned three off-shore drilling
rigs, another "farmed" something like a hundred acres of cotton and
one was a lawyer... who along with his father had one client, the
Gracie More Estate, or some such name. I asked the boss about this
"Gracie More Estate" and he told me it was a cotton plantation where
they found oil.

It sure must have changed.

I'm sure it varies from place to place. And of course, from person to
person.

I recall riding a quiet country road with a young girl who was visiting
us. She had waist-length hair that was blowing out behind her as she rode.

A pickup truck came by with two yelling yokels. The truck swerved toward
her, and the passenger leaned out and apparently tried to grab her hair.
Fortunately he missed.

In that same area, my only other bicycling friend in town - an engineer
at the same plant where I worked - was riding home from work and was
knocked off his bike by a dog. This was at a house he regularly rode by.
Damage was minor (torn pants and a broken watch band, IIRC) but he went
up to the door to complain. The residents said "That's not our dog" even
though he saw it there all the time.

So he rode home and called the local sheriff. The sheriff told him "If I
was you, I'd get my gun and shoot that dog." My friend was a good shot
(we'd done some shooting together) but he declined.

I was quite happy to leave that area.

BTW, since then some fairly large companies have come into that town.
The population has grown quite a lot, and there are cultural amenities
that we couldn't have dreamed of. There's even a pretty active bike club.

Are you shore that you aren't exaggerating? Certainly there are folks
in every community that are, to use a colloquialism, "a horse's-ass"
but when I lived in the U.S. I found the bulk of the folks I met to be
pretty nice folks. And I was either a Yankee or a G.I. for much of the
time, Both apparently 2nd class citizens :-)

Oh, the bulk of folks we met there were nice. But compared to where I
grew up and live now, it seemed to have many more jerks, rednecks,
racists, etc. And as a bonus, there were quite a few who were convinced
the Civil War was just on hold for a while.

As for the Civil War, well, my grandfather was born in 1883 so while
he, himself, didn't experience the civil war certainly his parents did
and would have likely told him about conditions during the war, so I
can only assume that blokes living in the South might well have had
the same experience. Certainly if my Grand dad had told me stories
about Sherman marching through New Hampshire I might have somewhat
less than happy thoughts about "them Yankees".

But I lived in the South, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas (which isn't really a "Southern" state) and I don't believe that
I ever met anyone who wasn't aware that the Civil War was over and
done with. and yes, I have had people ask me to repeat things as my
"Northern" accent sounded funny to them, but essentially it was not
that different in living in Maine where any "out of state'er" is
considered a foreigner.

When I was first assigned to the Air Base at Bangor, Maine, I had just
gotten back from nearly 10 years in Japan and had no credit rating at
all so bought a house trailer for my wife and I to live in. When I
called a trailer park to see whether there was any space the owner
said he wasn't sure and why didn't I drive out and we'll have a look.

Anyway, I got there and yes there were open spaces and the guy and I
got to chatting and he asked me where I was from and I told him "New
Hampshire" which isn't Maine but close to. He than tells me that he
"doesn't like to rent to those "southern fellows" so he likes to talk
to folks before he agrees to let them into his lot.

That was probably the most blatant example of prejudice that I ever
encountered in the U.S.

I worked in the southern U.S. for years, first as an engineer, then as a
teacher. I saw far more blatant racial prejudice than I've ever seen
anywhere else.

It certainly wasn't everybody. Most people were very nice. But the ones
who expressed their racism did it much more frequently and openly than
I've ever been used to.

True, and I might add that growing up in New Hampshire my only contact
with what are now referred to as "Afro-Americans was the Uncle Remus
stories. The first Afro-American I ever saw was a member of a semi-pro
baseball team that came to town to play against the Town Team when I
was a senior in high school so I certainly had no pre-conceived
notions when I went to Florida to school. When I finished school I
went to work in a small town, Bainbridge, Georgia.

I think that what I noticed the most about what you call "blatant
racial prejudice" was really more a matter of people "knowing" that
"They" really weren't as good as "Us". And let's face it, "They"
weren't really as good as "Us". "They" had little education, had few
marketable skills, and were, generally speaking, less law abiding.

You can argue all you want about "Them" not having a chance, etc., but
the point was at that time "They" really didn't measure up.

I agree that while there certainly were those that "hated"
Afro-Americans simply because they were Afro-Americans but there were
far more, at least among those who I knew, who simply viewed them as a
lower class of people, which was, at the time, just what they were.

I had black friends and students who were certainly not lower class
people, but who regularly endured taunts, snide comments and worse.

BTW, when one of those students got married, my wife and I were the only
whites invited to his otherwise all black wedding. It was a bit of an
educational experience for me, to feel just a little of the unease
blacks must feel on many occasions.

We were treated very nicely; but we were obviously part of "them," or
"the others."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 9:24:37 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2019 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 2:33:29 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/26/2019 9:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

He is a highly respected politician.

While highly respected is true (thank you for that, it means a lot
coming from you), it's also true that I am reviled by those trying to
exploit our city for their own financial gain.

I never really thought of running for office. I was coerced into
running, never believing I had any chance against the moneyed special
interests. My wife pleaded "just don't come in last."

For all the attacks I endured in the campaign, no one ever claimed that
I was a gorilla (or a guerilla). As a child during the Vietnam war I
remember thinking that it was really bad that North Vietnam was using
gorillas to fight.

Can't you even recognize sarcasm when you see it? I do NOT think that John B. thinks you are a "highly respected politician". I think that he like many of us here firmly believe that you lie through your teeth in order to advance whatever agenda you are currently pushing. Once again you took something totally out of context, trimmed an original post to match what YOU want to believe and then posted it.

s for Guerilla Marketing, again it was YOU who BOASTED on this newsgroup that you did guerilla marketing.

Well, perhaps a slight correction is in order. As I recall it, I visited
Scharf's websites (about headlights, bottle cages, coffee systems, etc.)
and found the statement that he used to have at the bottom of each site.
That statement bragged about his guerilla marketing, including
mentioning his posts on various bike forums. (And yes, he used that
phrase, "guerilla marketing.")

I just copied his statement and pasted it here. I suspect he'd prefer
people here would not have found it.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Geez Frank, bringing that up again and again makes you look silly and childisch. Please stop we can think for ourselves.

Lou

On 5/28/2019 2:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 9:24:37 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2019 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 2:33:29 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/26/2019 9:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

He is a highly respected politician.

While highly respected is true (thank you for that, it means a lot
coming from you), it's also true that I am reviled by those trying to
exploit our city for their own financial gain.

I never really thought of running for office. I was coerced into
running, never believing I had any chance against the moneyed special
interests. My wife pleaded "just don't come in last."

For all the attacks I endured in the campaign, no one ever claimed that
I was a gorilla (or a guerilla). As a child during the Vietnam war I
remember thinking that it was really bad that North Vietnam was using
gorillas to fight.

Can't you even recognize sarcasm when you see it? I do NOT think that John B. thinks you are a "highly respected politician". I think that he like many of us here firmly believe that you lie through your teeth in order to advance whatever agenda you are currently pushing. Once again you took something totally out of context, trimmed an original post to match what YOU want to believe and then posted it.

s for Guerilla Marketing, again it was YOU who BOASTED on this newsgroup that you did guerilla marketing.

Well, perhaps a slight correction is in order. As I recall it, I visited
Scharf's websites (about headlights, bottle cages, coffee systems, etc.)
and found the statement that he used to have at the bottom of each site.
That statement bragged about his guerilla marketing, including
mentioning his posts on various bike forums. (And yes, he used that
phrase, "guerilla marketing.")

I just copied his statement and pasted it here. I suspect he'd prefer
people here would not have found it.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Geez Frank, bringing that up again and again makes you look silly and childisch. Please stop we can think for ourselves.

Geez, Lou, if you really disapprove, shouldn't you say that to the
person who actually brought it up this time? (It wasn't me.)

And am I really not allowed to comment when someone else brings it up? Wow.


--
- Frank Krygowski