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  #101  
Old June 15th 19, 05:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,303
Default Protecting yourself

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:40:15 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2019 12:36 AM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:27:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 22:37:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But, said my friend, money made by recycling was not taxed.
(Californians may want to chime in on whether that was true - for me,
it's just hearsay.) So the guy spent all his time bicycling around,
collecting roadside aluminum cans to supplement his income.

I don't know, and could not find anything definitive with Google.
However, the continuing decline in the number of recycling centers in
California seems to indicate that recycling is NOT a thriving business.


It all depends on what industry will pay for the collected goods./rubbish.

In my youth, t was rofitble for various community groups to hold paper
drives, bottle recycling, etc. Now it isn't worth the effort. it costs
far more in fuel then you'll ever get for the product.

The major changes of the massive production of raw materias like
newsprint, lastic nurdles,etc couple with rock bottom international
shipping prices.


I've wondered about the overall energy balance of recycling efforts. On
one hand, recycling aluminum uses far less energy (and must certainly
cost less) than refining new aluminum from ore.

At the other extreme, driving your SUV five miles to drop a PET bottle
in a bin is probably a net loss. Most overall recycling processes must
fall between those extremes, but I wonder where the break even point is.

BTW, thanks for the new vocabulary word. I used to be an engineer in a
plastic processing factory, but I never heard the word "nurdle." We
called them pellets.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Don't you have curbside recycling pickup like you do with your household garbage?

Cheers
Ads
  #102  
Old June 15th 19, 05:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,337
Default Protecting yourself

On 6/15/2019 12:20 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:40:15 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2019 12:36 AM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:27:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 22:37:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But, said my friend, money made by recycling was not taxed.
(Californians may want to chime in on whether that was true - for me,
it's just hearsay.) So the guy spent all his time bicycling around,
collecting roadside aluminum cans to supplement his income.

I don't know, and could not find anything definitive with Google.
However, the continuing decline in the number of recycling centers in
California seems to indicate that recycling is NOT a thriving business.

It all depends on what industry will pay for the collected goods./rubbish.

In my youth, t was rofitble for various community groups to hold paper
drives, bottle recycling, etc. Now it isn't worth the effort. it costs
far more in fuel then you'll ever get for the product.

The major changes of the massive production of raw materias like
newsprint, lastic nurdles,etc couple with rock bottom international
shipping prices.


I've wondered about the overall energy balance of recycling efforts. On
one hand, recycling aluminum uses far less energy (and must certainly
cost less) than refining new aluminum from ore.

At the other extreme, driving your SUV five miles to drop a PET bottle
in a bin is probably a net loss. Most overall recycling processes must
fall between those extremes, but I wonder where the break even point is.

BTW, thanks for the new vocabulary word. I used to be an engineer in a
plastic processing factory, but I never heard the word "nurdle." We
called them pellets.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Don't you have curbside recycling pickup like you do with your household garbage?


Yes. But curbside recycling has energy costs, and I'm sure much of the
stuff we recycle has little monetary value.

My guesses (with no research): Aluminum is probably highest value. Steel
and glass may be next. But I suspect PET, polyethylene and newsprint are
low enough in value that recycling them may be a net loss.

I've mentioned this before, but we can "recycle" shopping bags only by
dropping them in a big bin at the grocery store. The manager of the main
township recycling center said those are actually never recycled; that
there's no practical market for those, so they're actually dumped.

Perhaps he was mistaken, but I'm sure it's not easy to design processing
machinery that wouldn't be prone to clogging, jamming, etc. by that thin
film.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #103  
Old June 15th 19, 06:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Protecting yourself

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:37:11 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:19:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 11:55:24 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The U.S. exported some 2.5 million tonnes of plastic waste in 2015.
The volume dropped to only 1.07 million tonnes in 2018 primarily due
to China refusing to allow the waste to be imported. (note: Chinese
imports have decreased by some 96% from the 2015 figures)


China didn't exactly ban the import of recyclables. They raised the
contamination percentage requirement from 1.5% to 0.5%, which is
nearly impossible to meet:
https://www.wastedive.com/news/china-contamination-standard-MRFs/519659/


As of January, 2018, China banned 24 types of imported waste.
The banned list includes:
eight types of post consumer plastic scrap; one type of unsorted scrap
paper; 11 types of used or scrap textile materials; and
four types of metal slag that contain vanadium.


Thanks. I wasn't aware that it was an outright ban.

Announced April 2018:
"China announces import ban on an additional 32 scrap materials"
https://www.reuters.com/article/china-waste-imports/update-1-china-bans-imports-of-16-more-scrap-waste-products-from-end-2018-ministry-idUSL3N1RW1UK
16 items were banned in 2018, while another 16 are scheduled to be
banned starting the end of 2019:
https://images.magnetmail.net/images/clients/ISRIID/attach/MEEAnnouncement20182019BannedItems.pdf

Your reference seems to be concerned with contamination limits on
allowable imports.


"China proposes new 0.5% contamination standard with March 2018
enforcement"
https://www.wastedive.com/news/china-proposes-new-05-contamination-standard-with-march-2018-enforcement/511122/
Looks like you're right about it applying to allowed imports, but
should China change it's mind and loosen the contamination
requirements, it could easily be applied to all imports.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #104  
Old June 15th 19, 06:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Protecting yourself

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:50:00 +0700, John B.
wrote:

A recent news article stated that Chinese companies are considering
building re-cycling plants in the U.S.
https://resource-recycling.com/plast...cycling-plans/


It's been proposed that US manufacturing companies be responsible for
recycling their own products after their useful life has ended. That
won't work because too much of our consumables and durable goods are
imported and we're unlikely to be shipping garbage around the country
back to the where it was manufactured. Even of US factories, shipping
garbage around the country is too expensive. At best, this might
inspire a redesign of some products into something that could be more
easily recycled.

However, I'm wondering if these proposed Chinese owned recycling
plants are in anticipation of such a law being passed where the
Chinese do the processing (for a hefty fee).

Meanwhile, recycling in Mexico looks promising:
https://mxmarketintelligence.wordpress.com/2019/02/12/mexicos-plastics-recycling-industry/

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #105  
Old June 15th 19, 07:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,303
Default Protecting yourself

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 12:58:26 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2019 12:20 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:40:15 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2019 12:36 AM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:27:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 22:37:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But, said my friend, money made by recycling was not taxed.
(Californians may want to chime in on whether that was true - for me,
it's just hearsay.) So the guy spent all his time bicycling around,
collecting roadside aluminum cans to supplement his income.

I don't know, and could not find anything definitive with Google.
However, the continuing decline in the number of recycling centers in
California seems to indicate that recycling is NOT a thriving business.

It all depends on what industry will pay for the collected goods./rubbish.

In my youth, t was rofitble for various community groups to hold paper
drives, bottle recycling, etc. Now it isn't worth the effort. it costs
far more in fuel then you'll ever get for the product.

The major changes of the massive production of raw materias like
newsprint, lastic nurdles,etc couple with rock bottom international
shipping prices.

I've wondered about the overall energy balance of recycling efforts. On
one hand, recycling aluminum uses far less energy (and must certainly
cost less) than refining new aluminum from ore.

At the other extreme, driving your SUV five miles to drop a PET bottle
in a bin is probably a net loss. Most overall recycling processes must
fall between those extremes, but I wonder where the break even point is.

BTW, thanks for the new vocabulary word. I used to be an engineer in a
plastic processing factory, but I never heard the word "nurdle." We
called them pellets.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Don't you have curbside recycling pickup like you do with your household garbage?


Yes. But curbside recycling has energy costs, and I'm sure much of the
stuff we recycle has little monetary value.

My guesses (with no research): Aluminum is probably highest value. Steel
and glass may be next. But I suspect PET, polyethylene and newsprint are
low enough in value that recycling them may be a net loss.

I've mentioned this before, but we can "recycle" shopping bags only by
dropping them in a big bin at the grocery store. The manager of the main
township recycling center said those are actually never recycled; that
there's no practical market for those, so they're actually dumped.

Perhaps he was mistaken, but I'm sure it's not easy to design processing
machinery that wouldn't be prone to clogging, jamming, etc. by that thin
film.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Up here our plastic shopping bags go into the Paper Recycling bins.

Cheers
  #106  
Old June 15th 19, 11:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Protecting yourself

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:58:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/15/2019 12:20 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:40:15 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2019 12:36 AM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:27:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 22:37:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But, said my friend, money made by recycling was not taxed.
(Californians may want to chime in on whether that was true - for me,
it's just hearsay.) So the guy spent all his time bicycling around,
collecting roadside aluminum cans to supplement his income.

I don't know, and could not find anything definitive with Google.
However, the continuing decline in the number of recycling centers in
California seems to indicate that recycling is NOT a thriving business.

It all depends on what industry will pay for the collected goods./rubbish.

In my youth, t was rofitble for various community groups to hold paper
drives, bottle recycling, etc. Now it isn't worth the effort. it costs
far more in fuel then you'll ever get for the product.

The major changes of the massive production of raw materias like
newsprint, lastic nurdles,etc couple with rock bottom international
shipping prices.

I've wondered about the overall energy balance of recycling efforts. On
one hand, recycling aluminum uses far less energy (and must certainly
cost less) than refining new aluminum from ore.

At the other extreme, driving your SUV five miles to drop a PET bottle
in a bin is probably a net loss. Most overall recycling processes must
fall between those extremes, but I wonder where the break even point is.

BTW, thanks for the new vocabulary word. I used to be an engineer in a
plastic processing factory, but I never heard the word "nurdle." We
called them pellets.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Don't you have curbside recycling pickup like you do with your household garbage?


Yes. But curbside recycling has energy costs, and I'm sure much of the
stuff we recycle has little monetary value.


Over here they certainly do re-cycle PET drink bottles and some home
owners (my son) do save their plastic bottles for re-sale and they are
collected by those who pick over garbage cans, but plastic bags are
ignored probably because they are valueless.

By "Sunday Ride" is over a major highway here and I normally see two
garbage pickers (riding bicycles) who pedal slowly along the highway
picking up every plastic bottle that they see while ignoring all the
plastic bags.

The largest department store chain in Thailand - "Lotus Tesco" - has a
policy of giving buyers a small rebate for NOT requesting bags and you
do see quite a lot of people who bring their own shopping bags so
apparently the policy does work. However whether it results in a
significant reduction in disposable plastic use is debatable.


My guesses (with no research): Aluminum is probably highest value. Steel
and glass may be next. But I suspect PET, polyethylene and newsprint are
low enough in value that recycling them may be a net loss.

I've mentioned this before, but we can "recycle" shopping bags only by
dropping them in a big bin at the grocery store. The manager of the main
township recycling center said those are actually never recycled; that
there's no practical market for those, so they're actually dumped.

Perhaps he was mistaken, but I'm sure it's not easy to design processing
machinery that wouldn't be prone to clogging, jamming, etc. by that thin
film.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #107  
Old June 15th 19, 11:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Protecting yourself

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 10:50:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:50:00 +0700, John B.
wrote:

A recent news article stated that Chinese companies are considering
building re-cycling plants in the U.S.
https://resource-recycling.com/plast...cycling-plans/


It's been proposed that US manufacturing companies be responsible for
recycling their own products after their useful life has ended. That
won't work because too much of our consumables and durable goods are
imported and we're unlikely to be shipping garbage around the country
back to the where it was manufactured. Even of US factories, shipping
garbage around the country is too expensive. At best, this might
inspire a redesign of some products into something that could be more
easily recycled.


I recently read something about California having PET bottles with
some code that indicated that they were "refundable" like the glass
beer bottles were in years gone by.

However, I'm wondering if these proposed Chinese owned recycling
plants are in anticipation of such a law being passed where the
Chinese do the processing (for a hefty fee).

Meanwhile, recycling in Mexico looks promising:
https://mxmarketintelligence.wordpress.com/2019/02/12/mexicos-plastics-recycling-industry/


As I said, PET bottles are readily re-sellable here so apparently the
recycling industry is alive and well. As Frank has noted one reason
for the re-cycling business in the U.S. being less than profitable is
the difficulty of designing machines for separating the garbage into
various categories. Here, on the ether hand, where wages are
significantly lower than "THERE", hand separation is well and
thriving. In fact, some years ago , I worked on a garbage recycling
project where the raw garbage was to be simply dumped onto long
conveyer belts and hand picked by multitudes of people.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #108  
Old June 16th 19, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Protecting yourself

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 05:32:15 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I recently read something about California having PET bottles with
some code that indicated that they were "refundable" like the glass
beer bottles were in years gone by.


Yes, CRV (California Refund Value).
https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/bevcontainer
https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/bevcontainer/programinfo/faq
The remaining recycling centers continue to accept CRV recyclables, as
long as the state continues to pay them for the collected materials.
However, since nobody wants the PET bottles, it's unlikely that this
practice will continue.
"Your Recycling Gets Recycled, Right? Maybe, or Maybe Not"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html
Other states have similar programs (and problems):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_in_the_United_States

Meanwhile, recycling in Mexico looks promising:
https://mxmarketintelligence.wordpress.com/2019/02/12/mexicos-plastics-recycling-industry/


As I said, PET bottles are readily re-sellable here so apparently the
recycling industry is alive and well. As Frank has noted one reason
for the re-cycling business in the U.S. being less than profitable is
the difficulty of designing machines for separating the garbage into
various categories.


Near IR scanners are common and seem to work well with shredded
plastics:
https://oceanoptics.com/plastic-recycling-nir-spectroscopy/
https://www.nrtsorters.com/markets/plastics/
The problem is not identifying the various plastics, but rather the
handling of the plastic. There are a few colored plastic bottles with
pigments that tend to fool the scanners.

Here, on the ether hand, where wages are
significantly lower than "THERE", hand separation is well and
thriving. In fact, some years ago , I worked on a garbage recycling
project where the raw garbage was to be simply dumped onto long
conveyer belts and hand picked by multitudes of people.


"Santa Cruz Recycles Video" (2009)
https://youtu.be/jcIDCbXZklY (9:23)
Hand sorting starts at 4:28. The sorting is currently being done
mostly by the mentally disabled.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #109  
Old June 16th 19, 01:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 404
Default Protecting yourself

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 9:12:10 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 06:19:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

However I note that as a result of the U.S. presidential ban on some
imports from China the Chinese have, in return, banned the shipment
of most types of plastic waste from the U.S. and Malaysia, Taiwan,
Thailand and Vietnam also are also placing bans on the import of
plastic waste from the U.S.


No sweat. We can ship it to Indianapolis.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


We use so much plastic in the US that it seems rather ridiculous for us to ship recyclables to China for them to reduce to blocks of plastic and sell back to us.
  #110  
Old June 16th 19, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 404
Default Protecting yourself

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 5:42:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/13/2019 11:12 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 06:19:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

However I note that as a result of the U.S. presidential ban on some
imports from China the Chinese have, in return, banned the shipment
of most types of plastic waste from the U.S. and Malaysia, Taiwan,
Thailand and Vietnam also are also placing bans on the import of
plastic waste from the U.S.


No sweat. We can ship it to Indianapolis.


It's a difficult problem:
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/recycl...te-pet-2877869

labor and energy inputs are high compared to new material.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I would have to think about that Andrew. I suspect the numbers you're looking at are the present costs of the bulk chemicals vs the recycling costs rather than the energy used to manufacture the bulk chemicals used in manufacturing PET.
 




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