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#11
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On 6/18/2019 12:55 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/17/2019 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight and the truth is that lifting that weight up the climbs is far overshadowed by the high speed frictional drag of the body. I could more than off-set that difference by riding on the drops downhill and on the flats if it wasn't so uncomfortable to an old broken down body. I agree. The effect of a couple pounds of weight is tiny. ... What these numbers tell to me is that the only real advantage of the carbon fiber bikes is that they are more aero and so you can hold a higher speed into a headwind. I think the same logic applies to the aerodynamics of the bike frame. Yes, there are bikes that are designed to be more aerodynamic. But the great bulk of the air drag comes from the rider. It makes no sense to measure the reduced drag of the frame alone, any more than to compare a 20 pound bike with an 18 pound bike and say "It's 10% lighter, I should go 10% faster!" Aero wheels will be a bit faster, but colossally expensive. And I expect their advantage could be swamped by the effect of wearing a jersey that flaps a bit because it's a little too loose in the shoulders. -- - Frank Krygowski I often wonder just how much of the aero advantages offered by many components actually is when coupled with t he churned up air created by the bicyclist. My guess is that if the bicyclist is NOT pedaling then the aerodynamic benefits of many things might be a bit greater than if pedaling is occurring. Cheers See https://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.c...31&context=etd which says that the rider contributes about 70% of the total drag. Wasn't Greg LeMond's wining the 1989 TdeF attributed in part to an aerodynamic helmet? That was a time trial stage, and it's true that time trials are one event where every tiny bit of improvement helps. For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#12
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 12:55 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/17/2019 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight and the truth is that lifting that weight up the climbs is far overshadowed by the high speed frictional drag of the body. I could more than off-set that difference by riding on the drops downhill and on the flats if it wasn't so uncomfortable to an old broken down body. I agree. The effect of a couple pounds of weight is tiny. ... What these numbers tell to me is that the only real advantage of the carbon fiber bikes is that they are more aero and so you can hold a higher speed into a headwind. I think the same logic applies to the aerodynamics of the bike frame. Yes, there are bikes that are designed to be more aerodynamic. But the great bulk of the air drag comes from the rider. It makes no sense to measure the reduced drag of the frame alone, any more than to compare a 20 pound bike with an 18 pound bike and say "It's 10% lighter, I should go 10% faster!" Aero wheels will be a bit faster, but colossally expensive. And I expect their advantage could be swamped by the effect of wearing a jersey that flaps a bit because it's a little too loose in the shoulders. -- - Frank Krygowski I often wonder just how much of the aero advantages offered by many components actually is when coupled with t he churned up air created by the bicyclist. My guess is that if the bicyclist is NOT pedaling then the aerodynamic benefits of many things might be a bit greater than if pedaling is occurring. Cheers See https://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.c...31&context=etd which says that the rider contributes about 70% of the total drag. Wasn't Greg LeMond's wining the 1989 TdeF attributed in part to an aerodynamic helmet? That was a time trial stage, and it's true that time trials are one event where every tiny bit of improvement helps. For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. -- Jay Beattie. |
#13
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:46:59 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit. Sigh... we know Frank you told us that 100 times. Lou |
#14
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit. -- - Frank Krygowski That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding. Cheers |
#15
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:57:10 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
OK, I just went out and weighed my road bikes again. Just like I would walk out the door with. Basso Loto - this is the final year of production and used Basso Tubing Concepts tubes instead of Columbus tubes. 22.12 lbs Time VX - 28 mm tires and aluminum BB lugs and multi-shaped carbon tubes. - 21.9 lbs Colnago CLX 3.0 - carbon wheels and everything else possible. 20.17 lbs. Now it seems pretty plain that I could reduce the weight of the Basso to very close to that of the Colnago. But to do so would mean I would have to put carbon wheels on it. And maybe a carbon fork which would put me in a position of having a hybrid carbon/steel bike which seems to kill the idea of having a steel bike in the first place. The real question is does this weight really make a difference? A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference On the overall bike + rider weight, that's less than 1% difference. I think it would be hard to perceive a difference. Maybe at a pro-racing level small fractions like 1% on this component or the other, or behavioural choices, mount up, but you'd need quite a few that small to make a perceptible difference. I did have one change of transmission gruppo that made a radical difference to the time over a ride I then took at least six days a week, when I changed from a manual hub gearbox to an automatic change mechanism on exactly the same hub gearbox on exactly the same sort of bike weighing the same to within ounces. But that's because I'm a masher who used to hang on to gears. You guys with good cadence control will in the same circumstances see a smaller gain than I did because you're already exploiting the rider/transmission interface better than I could then do. Different kind of comparison, but it does illustrate that the margins of possible gain from any change grow smaller with the experience and skill of the cyclist. Andre Jute Faster downhill than up |
#16
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: Snipped And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit. -- - Frank Krygowski That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding. What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much. And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know! -- Jay Beattie. |
#17
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
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#18
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: Snipped And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit. -- - Frank Krygowski That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding. Cheers Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a battle in League Of Legends. -- Cheers, John B. |
#19
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Sipped What is the deal with handlebar bags these days... Snipped And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know! -- Jay Beattie. Hey, I like my handlebar bag. I have it mounted on a cutdown handlebar fitted to a threadless stem that is then mounted to my seatpost. I can vcarry my repair kit, spare tubes, snacks, spare bottles of water or Powerade and my rain jacket in that bag. I don't have anyone who can come and get me I need a ride thus I like to be totally self reliant on the road or trails. https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...57662865565180 Cheers |
#20
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
jbeattie writes:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: Snipped And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit. -- - Frank Krygowski That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding. What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much. And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know! Beard oil. What would you expect? I rode up almost to Portland last week, for a spot of vacation. The original Portland, Maine. Lots of hipsters there too. |
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