A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old June 19th 19, 04:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 11:06:37 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference..

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


--
- Frank Krygowski


Ah, but I don't think we're talking about just a 2 pounds difference in overall bicycle weight. On a long ride with a lot of hills that 1% you quoted could really add up.

You know Frank, you really do seem to disparage everyone who does not ride the same way that you do. Different bicyclists have different goals, needs and or wants. Thus they might want the lightest equipment or they might want a lighter bike so they can carry something extra like perhaps more water or electrolyte drinks without having an overall weight gain. That 2 pounds you mentioned could be utilized to carry 3 bottles of water or other beverage.

Cheers
Ads
  #32  
Old June 19th 19, 04:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 7:55:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!


OK, I just did an inventory for you. This is from the touring bike,
which is what I most often ride on solo recreational rides.

First, the bike's parked now, and there are things in the bag that are
just stored there now but will be used or worn when riding. That's the
cycling cap, riding gloves and eyeglass mirror. There are a couple
safety pins, because I ride pretty frequently in regular clothes and
have to pin my pants cuffs to keep them out of the chain.

There are tools: an old Mafac tool pouch with a few tiny tools, some
Mafac some not. There's also a new multitool, so I could probably lose a
couple grams of the old tools. There's a tube, a patch kit and tire
irons. A tiny bottle from eyedrops that contains maybe 2 ml of oil, and
a spare shifter cable. A mini tube of hand cleaner and some paper
towels. A micro-flashlight in case I flat at night. A lightweight cable
lock.

A few snack items: a small bag of raisins, one envelope of sports gel, a
few restaurant packs of honey, and a few of mustard because I've had
soem trouble with cramps. Oh, and a tea bag in foil because I've come
across restaurants that don't carry real tea.

There's a pen, and a couple of lawyer Steve Magas's cards with
abbreviated versions of our state's bike laws. Those are in case I get
stopped by an ignorant cop.

Here are the quirkier items: A fabric case from my small binoculars,
because it's the perfect size to hold my cell phone, wallet and keys as
I ride, and I can easily grab it to take into a restaurant or store.
There's a tiny compass and thermometer, zipper-pull size. There's a
monocular that I use for wildlife and at least once or twice, for
navigation while on tour - as in "Which road is that up ahead?". And
there's a take-apart pennywhistle. It's one of the instruments I play.

There's a can of Halt clipped to the outside of the bag. All that comes
to 2.5 pounds.

The bag is pretty large, and it's my own design and build. So is the one
on my utility/commuting/shopping bike. But there's one on every bike I
own, with the others being pretty standard commercial ones.

I find these bags very handy. They carry stuff home from stores, they
stash jackets and sweaters and tights and arm warmers when things warm
up or may cool down. They have carried library books, take-out
sandwiches, rain clothing, maps, guidebooks, cameras, found tools and more.

I still remember when a good cycling friend showed up (in his car) to
show off his brand new custom framed bike. As we were getting ready to
take a ride together, he said "Can you carry my jacket for me?"

I guess that's what guys without bags do? Besides greatly restricting
the practical use of their bikes, that is.


Wow. You should be a bookmobile. My map, camera, pencil, card, passport, etc., etc. are on my iPhone. My rain jacket can go in my jersey pocket, plus I have a Castelli jacket the fits into a little pod the size of a doughnut.. Cliff bar and gel pack and reduced wallet in jersey pocket. Seat pack with tools, tubes, no patches anymore although I might get some no-glue patches. I don't begrudge anyone his or her handlebar bag, but I've never seen the need for weekend riding. If the going gets tough, I go to a 7-11. It's not like I'm riding in Timbuktu. https://www.columbian.com/news/2015/...e-of-portland/ If you take a hard right, you end up at a 7-11 in Sandy.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #33  
Old June 19th 19, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 11:14 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 11:06:37 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference.

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


--
- Frank Krygowski


Ah, but I don't think we're talking about just a 2 pounds difference in overall bicycle weight. On a long ride with a lot of hills that 1% you quoted could really add up.


Um... it could "really add up" to 1%. No more. Keep in mind, it makes
only an extremely negligible difference on level ground (multiply the
CRR times that 1%). And on a downhill, the lighter bike+rider is slower,
if all else is equal.

You know Frank, you really do seem to disparage everyone who does not ride the same way that you do. Different bicyclists have different goals, needs and or wants.


Of course they do! I'm not disparaging. I'm discussing these things by
stating my opinion. If your opinion is different, feel free to state it
and defend it as logically as you can.

ISTM this would be a very boring "discussion group" if everyone had
precisely the same opinions!

Thus they might want the lightest equipment or they might want a lighter bike so they can carry something extra like perhaps more water or electrolyte drinks without having an overall weight gain. That 2 pounds you mentioned could be utilized to carry 3 bottles of water or other beverage.


It could, I suppose. I've never had problems carrying enough water,
though. And I suspect that if I were going to ride somewhere so hot and
remote that carrying water were critical, I'd probably choose ruggedness
over lightness.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #34  
Old June 19th 19, 04:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a battle in
League Of Legends.



I rode an honest quarter century last Friday. I'm still pleased. Who
cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread. Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when I
examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching the
reinforcement under the end come through to the right side -- and that
thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread, since I chose
to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time, more
power to him.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/



  #35  
Old June 19th 19, 05:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 11:49:53 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a battle in
League Of Legends.



I rode an honest quarter century last Friday. I'm still pleased. Who
cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread. Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when I
examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching the
reinforcement under the end come through to the right side -- and that
thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread, since I chose
to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time, more
power to him.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


+100!
Cheers
  #36  
Old June 19th 19, 09:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 19/06/2019 03.57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride
or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value
whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me
finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit.

-- - Frank Krygowski

That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding
fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite
rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or
goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank
doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.


Of course I have a beard! What sort of insanity would expect a man to
take a sharp instrument to his face at some ungodly hour of the
morning?


Oooh! Oooh! There is nothing like trying to shave with a cut throat
razor with a hangover of biblical, nay, apocalyptic proportions :-(

Bring on the Gillette Mach 3 :-)


  #37  
Old June 19th 19, 11:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 09:17:57 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 19/06/2019 03.57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride
or a recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value
whatsoever. In fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me
finish five minutes later, they're still a net benefit.

-- - Frank Krygowski

That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding
fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite
rewarding.


What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or
goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank
doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.


Of course I have a beard! What sort of insanity would expect a man to
take a sharp instrument to his face at some ungodly hour of the
morning?


Oooh! Oooh! There is nothing like trying to shave with a cut throat
razor with a hangover of biblical, nay, apocalyptic proportions :-(

Bring on the Gillette Mach 3 :-)

Or the king of all razors the Fusion5 :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #38  
Old June 19th 19, 11:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:20:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:46:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/18/2019 3:11 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:57:10 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
OK, I just went out and weighed my road bikes again. Just like I would walk out the door with.

Basso Loto - this is the final year of production and used Basso
Tubing Concepts tubes instead of Columbus tubes. 22.12 lbs

Time VX - 28 mm tires and aluminum BB lugs and multi-shaped carbon tubes. - 21.9 lbs

Colnago CLX 3.0 - carbon wheels and everything else possible. 20.17 lbs.

Now it seems pretty plain that I could reduce the weight of the
Basso to very close to that of the Colnago. But to do so would
mean I would have to put carbon wheels on it. And maybe a carbon
fork which would put me in a position of having a hybrid
carbon/steel bike which seems to kill the idea of having a steel
bike in the first place.

The real question is does this weight really make a difference?

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb
difference only 0.01% difference in weight


190+22.12=212.12
190+20.17=210.17
Difference = 1.95 lbs
1.95 divided by 212.12 = .009193
Converting to percentage, which means moving the decimal point two
places to the right, equals 0.92% if rounding to two decimal points
for percentages. A little less than 1%. Yet, you write "0.01%".
I will not ask what grades you received in basic math classes
during your elementary school education. But it might help your so
called argument if you used correct math skills.

Now, does 1% make any difference? In the 2019 Giro d'Italia the
final stage was a 17 kilometer time trial. The winning time was 22
minutes, 7 seconds. Second place was 22 minutes, 11 seconds. A
difference of 4 seconds. 4 seconds is 0.30% of the winning time.
Less than one third of one percent. Or three tenths of one
percent.

The winner of the Giro d'Italia 2019 won in 90 hours, 1 minute, 47
seconds total time. Second place was 1 minute, 5 seconds behind.
1 minute, 5 seconds, is 0.02% of the total winning time. Much,
much, much less than 1%. Its one fiftieth of one percent.

Does 1% weight difference matter? Maybe that 1% weight difference
is equal to one fiftieth of one percent difference in time. Maybe.

When comparing weight (or aero) difference percentages, I don't think
it's realistic to transform them into racing elapsed time percentages,
for at least two reasons.

First, the speed vs. power curve is very non-linear, especially at
racing speeds. It's a cubic function. So producing (say) 2% more power
(or saving 2% of one's power by not having to move a heavier bike) will
not increase one's speed by 2%. The speed benefit will be less.

Second, in any race but a time trial, there is a _lot_ of stuff going on
that will mask the tiny differences we're talking about. Case in point:
I mentioned a club ride last week where I drafted a strong rider and so
finished five minutes or more ahead of everyone other than that strong
rider. The drafting was the benefit. It completely masked the fact that
I was on a 26 pound touring bike with added bags and fenders, 5 cogs in
back, toe clips, friction shifters, etc.

In a road race, there's drafting, choosing lines through corners,
guessing when to jump and when to let go, getting boxed in or not
getting boxed in, avoiding patches of bad pavement, getting enough sleep
the night before, and much much more. I think the effect of any design
feature of the bike is almost always lost in the noise.

And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.


True, but how else would one measure the effect of a lighter weight
bicycle?


Easier to carry upstairs.



True, but wouldn't one of those folding bike be a better choice for
those living on the upper levels ?

I recently saw an advert for a carbon fiber 14" folder that ought to
be the bee's knees for those who climb stairs as a regular part of
their cycling :-)

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #39  
Old June 19th 19, 11:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a battle in
League Of Legends.



I rode an honest quarter century last Friday. I'm still pleased. Who
cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread. Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when I
examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching the
reinforcement under the end come through to the right side -- and that
thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread, since I chose
to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time, more
power to him.



I think it’s good to have goals. Keeps you motivated. Everyone’s goals
need not be the same.

--
duane
  #40  
Old June 19th 19, 01:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 19/06/2019 11.46, Duane wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a
battle in League Of Legends.



I rode an honest quarter century last Friday. I'm still pleased.
Who cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread. Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when
I examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching
the reinforcement under the end come through to the right side --
and that thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread,
since I chose to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time,
more power to him.



I think it’s good to have goals. Keeps you motivated. Everyone’s
goals need not be the same.


I believe in setting achievable goals. Vomiting through my nose was
surprisingly achievable :-)


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Steel is real Doug Landau Techniques 10 December 28th 16 07:11 PM
Steel is real - again Ralph Barone[_3_] Techniques 18 January 5th 16 08:29 AM
Steel may be real but.... Andre Jute[_2_] Techniques 5 June 4th 13 03:06 AM
Steel is Real Gags Australia 12 August 18th 05 11:57 AM
Steel is real. A real dick! [email protected] Mountain Biking 0 February 11th 05 03:53 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.