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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter



 
 
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  #41  
Old June 19th 19, 01:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 19/06/2019 8:20 a.m., Tosspot wrote:
On 19/06/2019 11.46, Duane wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a
battle in League Of Legends.


I rode an honest quarter century last Friday.Â* I'm still pleased.
Who cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread.Â* Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when
I examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching
the reinforcement under the end come through to the right side --
and that thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread,
since I chose to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time,
more power to him.



I think it’s good to have goals.Â* Keeps you motivated.Â* Everyone’s
goals need not be the same.


I believe in setting achievable goals.Â* Vomiting through my nose was
surprisingly achievable :-)


Like I said, everyone's goals need not be the same.
Ads
  #42  
Old June 19th 19, 01:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

Tosspot wrote:
On 19/06/2019 11.46, Duane wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:02:04 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Sure a "reward" in one's imagination. Rather like winning a
battle in League Of Legends.


I rode an honest quarter century last Friday. I'm still pleased.
Who cares that nobody else noticed?

The overhanding on the seam down the front of my jersey is quite
invisible even though I didn't have matching thread. Machine
zig-zagging would have held just as well, but I feel rewarded when
I examine it, and also notice that none of the stitches attaching
the reinforcement under the end come through to the right side --
and that thread was even less yellow than the overhanding thread,
since I chose to match the tape on the back.

If someone gets a thrill out of cutting ten seconds off his time,
more power to him.



I think it’s good to have goals. Keeps you motivated. Everyone’s
goals need not be the same.


I believe in setting achievable goals. Vomiting through my nose was
surprisingly achievable :-)


Well then, attaboy and keep up the good work!

  #43  
Old June 19th 19, 03:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference..

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #44  
Old June 19th 19, 04:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 11:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 7:55:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.


What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!


OK, I just did an inventory for you. This is from the touring bike,
which is what I most often ride on solo recreational rides.

First, the bike's parked now, and there are things in the bag that are
just stored there now but will be used or worn when riding. That's the
cycling cap, riding gloves and eyeglass mirror. There are a couple
safety pins, because I ride pretty frequently in regular clothes and
have to pin my pants cuffs to keep them out of the chain.

There are tools: an old Mafac tool pouch with a few tiny tools, some
Mafac some not. There's also a new multitool, so I could probably lose a
couple grams of the old tools. There's a tube, a patch kit and tire
irons. A tiny bottle from eyedrops that contains maybe 2 ml of oil, and
a spare shifter cable. A mini tube of hand cleaner and some paper
towels. A micro-flashlight in case I flat at night. A lightweight cable
lock.

A few snack items: a small bag of raisins, one envelope of sports gel, a
few restaurant packs of honey, and a few of mustard because I've had
soem trouble with cramps. Oh, and a tea bag in foil because I've come
across restaurants that don't carry real tea.

There's a pen, and a couple of lawyer Steve Magas's cards with
abbreviated versions of our state's bike laws. Those are in case I get
stopped by an ignorant cop.

Here are the quirkier items: A fabric case from my small binoculars,
because it's the perfect size to hold my cell phone, wallet and keys as
I ride, and I can easily grab it to take into a restaurant or store.
There's a tiny compass and thermometer, zipper-pull size. There's a
monocular that I use for wildlife and at least once or twice, for
navigation while on tour - as in "Which road is that up ahead?". And
there's a take-apart pennywhistle. It's one of the instruments I play.

There's a can of Halt clipped to the outside of the bag. All that comes
to 2.5 pounds.

The bag is pretty large, and it's my own design and build. So is the one
on my utility/commuting/shopping bike. But there's one on every bike I
own, with the others being pretty standard commercial ones.

I find these bags very handy. They carry stuff home from stores, they
stash jackets and sweaters and tights and arm warmers when things warm
up or may cool down. They have carried library books, take-out
sandwiches, rain clothing, maps, guidebooks, cameras, found tools and more.

I still remember when a good cycling friend showed up (in his car) to
show off his brand new custom framed bike. As we were getting ready to
take a ride together, he said "Can you carry my jacket for me?"

I guess that's what guys without bags do? Besides greatly restricting
the practical use of their bikes, that is.


Wow. You should be a bookmobile. My map, camera, pencil, card, passport, etc., etc. are on my iPhone. My rain jacket can go in my jersey pocket, plus I have a Castelli jacket the fits into a little pod the size of a doughnut. Cliff bar and gel pack and reduced wallet in jersey pocket. Seat pack with tools, tubes, no patches anymore although I might get some no-glue patches. I don't begrudge anyone his or her handlebar bag, but I've never seen the need for weekend riding. If the going gets tough, I go to a 7-11. It's not like I'm riding in Timbuktu. https://www.columbian.com/news/2015/...e-of-portland/ If you take a hard right, you end up at a 7-11 in Sandy.


But if I want to buy something at that 7-11 and take it home, I can do it.

OK, I suppose you can too - as long as it's smaller than a pack of gum!

Last Friday, we invited a friend over and the three of us took a
leisurely ride on suburban and rural roads to a town maybe 10 miles away
and back. It was just a social ride with lots of pleasant conversation.
While there, I suggested we stop for a snack at a cute little Italian
restaurant.

My wife and our friend ordered slices of pie. I asked for a piece of
cake. When it came, my piece was probably a quarter of the whole cake.

Half of it came home with me in a takeout box, inside my handlebar bag.

The cake wasn't of earth shattering importance. But I've done similar
stuff often enough that I like having the bag there.

Another example:

Back when I was still teaching, I remember having one hell of a work
year, doing long hours and just getting crushed. But summer teaching
loads were light by mandate, so I could ride more.

As summer approached, I thought "I really want to take lots of new
rides. And I want to visit lots of libraries." (I really enjoy them.)
Then I thought "Hey, I'll ride my bike to all the libraries in our
county!" I didn't know that our county system had 18 libraries.

It was a fun project, working out schedules (many branches are closed on
certain days) and routes, exploring areas I hadn't ridden. But by
summer's end, I'd visited them all, rode lots of new-to-me roads, and
checked out books from every branch.

You get to guess how I carried the books home.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #45  
Old June 19th 19, 04:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/19/2019 10:25 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference.

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others.


I've solved that problem by choosing slower riding partners. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #46  
Old June 19th 19, 04:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 8:14:20 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2019 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb difference only 0.01% difference in weight and the truth is that lifting that weight up the climbs is far overshadowed by the high speed frictional drag of the body. I could more than off-set that difference by riding on the drops downhill and on the flats if it wasn't so uncomfortable to an old broken down body.


I agree. The effect of a couple pounds of weight is tiny.

...

What these numbers tell to me is that the only real advantage of the carbon fiber bikes is that they are more aero and so you can hold a higher speed into a headwind.


I think the same logic applies to the aerodynamics of the bike frame.
Yes, there are bikes that are designed to be more aerodynamic. But the
great bulk of the air drag comes from the rider. It makes no sense to
measure the reduced drag of the frame alone, any more than to compare a
20 pound bike with an 18 pound bike and say "It's 10% lighter, I should
go 10% faster!"

Aero wheels will be a bit faster, but colossally expensive. And I expect
their advantage could be swamped by the effect of wearing a jersey that
flaps a bit because it's a little too loose in the shoulders.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, these aero bikes also pull your down into a more aero position. It is extremely noticeable when we all start down a hill and I have at least 2 mph advantage on the normal bikes.
  #47  
Old June 19th 19, 04:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 3:42:42 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.


I ride with several guys that have these handlebar bags and I have yet to ever see one open them for anything.
  #48  
Old June 19th 19, 05:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 4:30:17 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

Wow. You should be a bookmobile. My map, camera, pencil, card, passport, etc., etc. are on my iPhone. My rain jacket can go in my jersey pocket, plus I have a Castelli jacket the fits into a little pod the size of a doughnut. Cliff bar and gel pack and reduced wallet in jersey pocket. Seat pack with tools, tubes, no patches anymore although I might get some no-glue patches. I don't begrudge anyone his or her handlebar bag, but I've never seen the need for weekend riding. If the going gets tough, I go to a 7-11. It's not like I'm riding in Timbuktu. https://www.columbian.com/news/2015/...e-of-portland/ If you take a hard right, you end up at a 7-11 in Sandy.

-- Jay Beattie.


What do you need all that stuff for? My iPhone is my heart rate monitor, GPS, speedo, tripmeter, rain shelter and tube patcher. (When it rains, I call my driver, who brings me a rain jacket and holds an umbrella over me while I change into the dry clothes he also brought. When the bike gets a flat, I call my driver to take me home and the bike to the bike shop for a new tube. When I go mountain climbing, a lady friend carries my water and dry clothes to the top for me. A little, a very little thought about one's convenience should suffice.)

Andre Jute
What's all the fuss about?
  #49  
Old June 19th 19, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference.

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others.

-- Jay Beattie.


5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly
Volpe.

And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no,
it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same.



  #50  
Old June 19th 19, 06:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
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Posts: 194
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 12:49:48 PM UTC-4, duane wrote:


5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly
Volpe.


I hear you, my Scott CR1 is 7 pounds lighter than my Merlin Road - with the same wheels.


And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no,
it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same.


The difference in overall performance between a decent carbon racing frame and even an exceptionally well-made steel racing frame is striking. The acceleration is startlingly quicker, the handling/cornering is more precise and quicker. The ride feels nearly as compliant, not enough difference such that a five hour ride leaves you feeling any more fatigued. IT simply comes alive with any real effort. This may come across as more of something that is only of interest to racers, but it isn't. My CR1 is a joy to ride, as much as I realize the Tarmac is to those who have enough experience to understand it.
 




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