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Off the bike - speeding cars shock.



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 14th 08, 05:46 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
S Mason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

A few weeks ago I was off the bike and had to endure the misery of driving
to work for a few days. The law breaking I saw shocked me into writing this
letter to our local newspaper:


http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter2.jpg

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/



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  #2  
Old October 14th 08, 05:54 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
John[_14_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

S Mason wrote:
A few weeks ago I was off the bike and had to endure the misery of
driving to work for a few days. The law breaking I saw shocked me into
writing this letter to our local newspaper:


http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter2.jpg


Did all the speeding that you witnessed result in the mass-carnage that
you would have expected to see if the speed limit zealots' predictions
are to be believed?

--
John
  #3  
Old October 14th 08, 06:06 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Mason[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.


"John" wrote in message
...
S Mason wrote:
A few weeks ago I was off the bike and had to endure the misery of
driving to work for a few days. The law breaking I saw shocked me into
writing this letter to our local newspaper:


http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter2.jpg


Did all the speeding that you witnessed result in the mass-carnage that
you would have expected to see if the speed limit zealots' predictions are
to be believed?


10 people dead every day? Is that mass carnage? No, but a crying shame for
those families involved in such unnecessary deaths.

If our city has learned anything from having had 120 separate 20 mph zones
for the past decade it is that slowing traffic down has had a dramatic
effect on the deaths on our streets, especially deaths and serious injuries
among children.

As far as cameras go, I don't care if they are on every street - the more
the merrier. I have a clean licence for one good reason, I don't exceed the
speed limit. I find that if I don't shoplift I don't get caught by the
shop's CCTV either. I can't see why people have such a big problem with
cameras, I don't give them a second thought.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/

  #4  
Old October 14th 08, 06:29 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ekul Namsob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,533
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

Simon Mason wrote:

As far as cameras go, I don't care if they are on every street - the more
the merrier. I have a clean licence for one good reason, I don't exceed the
speed limit. I find that if I don't shoplift I don't get caught by the
shop's CCTV either. I can't see why people have such a big problem with
cameras, I don't give them a second thought.


I have just one problem with that position: although shoplifting can be
detected by cameras, shops also use security staff.

A growing number of police forces have all but scrapped traffic policing
in favour of speed cameras. Consequently, it has become all too easy for
road users to behave recklessly.

As far as I'm concerned, speed cameras (for that is what they are, they
are emphatically not safety cameras as they only check one aspect of
road safety) should only ever be an extra.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire http://www.shrimper.org.uk
  #5  
Old October 14th 08, 06:34 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
John[_14_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

Simon Mason wrote:

"John" wrote in message
...
S Mason wrote:
A few weeks ago I was off the bike and had to endure the misery of
driving to work for a few days. The law breaking I saw shocked me
into writing this letter to our local newspaper:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter2.jpg


Did all the speeding that you witnessed result in the mass-carnage
that you would have expected to see if the speed limit zealots'
predictions are to be believed?


10 people dead every day? Is that mass carnage?


3,650 per year - where was that?

No, but a crying shame
for those families involved in such unnecessary deaths.


Absolutely. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone anywhere, let alone UK
motorists, who make up the thick-end of the casualty figures in the UK,
would disagree with that.

It appears to me that the debate over what the solution for this might
be is polarised, as is the bicycle helmet debate, with the
"establishment" and "road safety" lobbyists coming down on the side of
helmets and speed cameras, whilst those with the wherewithal to analyse
the data dispassionately, and resort to a bit of lateral thinking, can
see the weaknesses in the data, and in the arguments purporting to
"prove" that helmets or speed cameras are the panacea.

If our city has learned anything from having had 120 separate 20 mph
zones for the past decade it is that slowing traffic down has had a
dramatic effect on the deaths on our streets, especially deaths and
serious injuries among children.


Has independent scientific studies been carried out of before and after
data, and comparisons made with similar locations that haven't applied
20 mph speed limits, and current downward trends accommodated, which
proves that any drop in KSIs has definitely been *caused* by the
introduction of lower limits?

As far as cameras go, I don't care if they are on every street - the
more the merrier. I have a clean licence for one good reason, I don't
exceed the speed limit.


A clean licence is one thing, and an obsession with speed limits is
another, but are you therefore necessarily a "safe" driver? Do you ever
drive "too fast for the conditions"? It is implicitly speed within the
limit, and it is a larger factor in injury collisions than speeding
(speed above the limit). It is an increasingly dangerous phenomena
which may well be the result of the presence of speed cameras which
condone and practically encourage it.

I find that if I don't shoplift I don't get
caught by the shop's CCTV either.


Or is it just a coincidence? I don't speed, yet have been flashed by a
speed camera. Many dangerous drivers don't get caught by speed cameras
- simply because they are being dangerous, but within the speed limit.

I can't see why people have such a big
problem with cameras, I don't give them a second thought.


The problem is that they brain-wash drivers into believing that they are
safe and, more importantly, legal, no matter how dangerously they drive
- so long as they don't break the speed limit within range of a speed
camera.

--
John
  #6  
Old October 14th 08, 06:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Mason[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.


"Ekul Namsob" wrote in message
news:1iotcgl.962gxjgvrx9wN%notmyaddress.1.ekulnams ...


A growing number of police forces have all but scrapped traffic policing
in favour of speed cameras. Consequently, it has become all too easy for
road users to behave recklessly.

As far as I'm concerned, speed cameras (for that is what they are, they
are emphatically not safety cameras as they only check one aspect of
road safety) should only ever be an extra.


A couple of months ago, I drove to Romania, Moldova and Ukraine and I can
assure you that the local police cameras are not marked with big signs,
painted yellow or advertised in the local news media. Nor are there any
speed limit signs anywhere. They hide behind bushes with their cameras.

In many other countries in Europe, such as France, UK drivers are picked off
as easy prey as they are not use to the strict policing of speed limits
there, so if you think our safety cameras are sneaky and unfair, wait until
you have driven in a few other countries before you judge on the
"unfairness" of our policing of motoring laws.


--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/

  #7  
Old October 14th 08, 06:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
naked_draughtsman[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 179
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:46:44 +0100, S Mason wrote:

A few weeks ago I was off the bike and had to endure the misery of driving
to work for a few days. The law breaking I saw shocked me into writing this
letter to our local newspaper:


http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter2.jpg


It doesn't surprise me - I ride down a hill most mornings which has a 30
mph speed limit at the bottom as it's a residential area and is where 2
bus loads of children wait every morning. I'm usually doing bang on 30 mph
when I get to the signs but still get overtaken by people doing 40-50 mph
in cars. The speed limit just before is only 40!

peter
  #8  
Old October 14th 08, 06:59 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Mason[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.


"John" wrote in message
...


3,650 per year - where was that?


You are correct - it is now below 3000 dead per year (2,940) for the first
time since records began in 1926. My mistake! ROSPA put this down to:

"Local authority road safety programs, police, "government-led strategies"
and technological advances in vehicles."



Has independent scientific studies been carried out of before and after
data, and comparisons made with similar locations that haven't applied 20
mph speed limits, and current downward trends accommodated, which proves
that any drop in KSIs has definitely been *caused* by the introduction of
lower limits?



Yes.



A clean licence is one thing, and an obsession with speed limits is
another, but are you therefore necessarily a "safe" driver? Do you ever
drive "too fast for the conditions"? It is implicitly speed within the
limit, and it is a larger factor in injury collisions than speeding (speed
above the limit). It is an increasingly dangerous phenomena which may
well be the result of the presence of speed cameras which condone and
practically encourage it.



No. The speed limit is not a "target" to aim for but an absolute limit when
conditions are optimal. Speed should be reduced accordingly with adverse
conditions. That is obvious, or should be.



I find that if I don't shoplift I don't get caught by the shop's CCTV
either.


Or is it just a coincidence? I don't speed, yet have been flashed by a
speed camera. Many dangerous drivers don't get caught by speed cameras -
simply because they are being dangerous, but within the speed limit.

I can't see why people have such a big problem with cameras, I don't give
them a second thought.


The problem is that they brain-wash drivers into believing that they are
safe and, more importantly, legal, no matter how dangerously they drive -
so long as they don't break the speed limit within range of a speed
camera.



Not at all. The driver who killed 4 club cyclists in Wales a few years ago
was driving within the speed limit on black ice which he failed to take into
account. He was only fined £180 for having 3 faulty tyres.

Had there been a safety camera on that road maybe he would have *thought*
more about his speed and the 4 people may not have died.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/

  #9  
Old October 14th 08, 07:00 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ekul Namsob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,533
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

Simon Mason wrote:

"Ekul Namsob" wrote in message
news:1iotcgl.962gxjgvrx9wN%notmyaddress.1.ekulnams ...


A growing number of police forces have all but scrapped traffic policing
in favour of speed cameras. Consequently, it has become all too easy for
road users to behave recklessly.

As far as I'm concerned, speed cameras (for that is what they are, they
are emphatically not safety cameras as they only check one aspect of
road safety) should only ever be an extra.


A couple of months ago, I drove to Romania, Moldova and Ukraine and I can
assure you that the local police cameras are not marked with big signs,
painted yellow or advertised in the local news media. Nor are there any
speed limit signs anywhere. They hide behind bushes with their cameras.

In many other countries in Europe, such as France, UK drivers are picked off
as easy prey as they are not use to the strict policing of speed limits
there, so if you think our safety cameras are sneaky and unfair, wait until
you have driven in a few other countries before you judge on the
"unfairness" of our policing of motoring laws.


Have I /ever/ suggested that there is anything unfair about speed
cameras?

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire http://www.shrimper.org.uk
  #10  
Old October 14th 08, 07:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ekul Namsob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,533
Default Off the bike - speeding cars shock.

Simon Mason wrote:

"John" wrote in message
...


I can't see why people have such a big problem with cameras, I don't give
them a second thought.


The problem is that they brain-wash drivers into believing that they are
safe and, more importantly, legal, no matter how dangerously they drive -
so long as they don't break the speed limit within range of a speed
camera.



Not at all. The driver who killed 4 club cyclists in Wales a few years ago
was driving within the speed limit on black ice which he failed to take into
account. He was only fined £180 for having 3 faulty tyres.

Had there been a safety camera on that road maybe he would have *thought*
more about his speed and the 4 people may not have died.


Really? How on earth would a speed camera have encouraged the driver
with 3 faulty tyres to do anything about his speed? As you state, he was
obeying the speed limit.

Would an actual traffic copper have been more likely to spot the 3
faulty tyres? Would the copper have been more likely to see someone who
may have been driving too fast for the conditions?

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire http://www.shrimper.org.uk
 




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