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Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 11th 17, 05:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
(PeteCresswell)
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Posts: 2,790
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

My rear Schwalbe LandCruiser 40x700 is worn out and I am shopping a
replacement and looking at CompassCycle's slicks.

I always run mild knobs on the front wheel since going "Splat" on a wet
grassy slope a few years ago, and would probably replace my current el-cheapo
Forte 40 with a Compass knobbie if somebody says they roll that much better.

Looking at
https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...8-barlow-pass/
where they go on-and-on about how well their tires roll, but don't say
anything about width-vs-speed penalties.

I have a set of 28mm slicks that I ride occasionally, but usually avoid
because they beat me up too much and lose control in gravel/soft dirt.

The diff in cruising speed between 40's and 28's looks like 1-1.5 mph.

Fully-rigid bike.

Does this sound reasonable?

For me, the relevant Compass slick widths are 35, 38, and 44 with two case
options: Regular and Lightweight. I'm thinking that anything below
35 would defeat my purpose, which is a tire that:

- Does not beat me up on the bumps
- Floats enough to maintain control through gravel and loose dirt

In addition, it looks like their only relevant knobbie is a 38.

Has anybody ridden different sizes of Compass tires and compared cruising
speeds and floatation?

--
Pete Cresswell
Ads
  #2  
Old December 11th 17, 06:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,374
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

Pete,

here we use Conti's/HD Messengers rear depending on touring load or not on rear with a wider front currently a circumferentially ribbed English tire like a front end 9N corn planter. On a late 70's Raleigh. Fooling with tire pressures improves front skid from there. Large improvement going to a fork with longer trail and/or extending chain stay length adding a link n moving rear axle back. 35 is a good size.

Or buy a bike like JB's new frame. But JB is adaptable. Try the fat front n tire pressures first. Then longer wheelbase less fork gain Spend bucks on top end tires. Conti had a multi knobbed tire like a auto snow rear Contact.. Or go with a very round carcass sticky tire F/R with longer fork.

  #3  
Old December 11th 17, 07:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

On 2017-12-11 08:54, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
My rear Schwalbe LandCruiser 40x700 is worn out and I am shopping a
replacement and looking at CompassCycle's slicks.

I always run mild knobs on the front wheel since going "Splat" on a wet
grassy slope a few years ago, and would probably replace my current el-cheapo
Forte 40 with a Compass knobbie if somebody says they roll that much better.

Looking at
https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...8-barlow-pass/
where they go on-and-on about how well their tires roll, but don't say
anything about width-vs-speed penalties.

I have a set of 28mm slicks that I ride occasionally, but usually avoid
because they beat me up too much and lose control in gravel/soft dirt.

The diff in cruising speed between 40's and 28's looks like 1-1.5 mph.

Fully-rigid bike.

Does this sound reasonable?


That sounds about right. I see that difference between my MTB (2.2"
knobby tires) and road bike (25mm slicks) when on the same roads.
Pressure makes a lot of difference and I keep my MTB close to max
allowed, around 55psi. The road bike is usually at about 105psi.

The reason became apparent a few year ago during a stop where I touched
the rear tire of the MTB. It was considerably warmer than the front
tire. Tried same with the road bike the week after in similar weather
and found hardly any noticeable temperature rise.


For me, the relevant Compass slick widths are 35, 38, and 44 with two case
options: Regular and Lightweight. I'm thinking that anything below
35 would defeat my purpose, which is a tire that:

- Does not beat me up on the bumps
- Floats enough to maintain control through gravel and loose dirt

In addition, it looks like their only relevant knobbie is a 38.

Has anybody ridden different sizes of Compass tires and compared cruising
speeds and floatation?


Can't comment on that. What I (and dirt bike friends) noticed though was
that knobbies wear down much faster when riding on pavement. I get 800mi
out of a good MTB knobby tire on dirt but only about 500mi on roads.
Road bike slicks last 1100-2500mi depending on type and brand. If the
sidewalls hold out that long which isn't always the case.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #4  
Old December 11th 17, 11:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
(PeteCresswell)
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Posts: 2,790
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

Per Joerg:
Road bike slicks last 1100-2500mi depending on type and brand. If the
sidewalls hold out that long which isn't always the case.


Would you feel comfortable buying tires with "Extra-Light" sidewalls?

Seems to me like "No way Jose'" on the front due to the severe consequences
of a front blowout.... But the rear?
--
Pete Cresswell
  #5  
Old December 12th 17, 12:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,374
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

But the rear?

is not necessary. 'ultimate' performance claims are not required for riding around the block. a good touring tire is enough. a good commuting tire goes too a bit too heavy unless your road surfaces are covered with debris

important that each category has a bottom n top end. Is not well all touring tires are inferior to road racers...
  #6  
Old December 12th 17, 12:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

On 2017-12-11 14:39, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Joerg:
Road bike slicks last 1100-2500mi depending on type and brand. If the
sidewalls hold out that long which isn't always the case.


Would you feel comfortable buying tires with "Extra-Light" sidewalls?


Never, no way. Sidewalls are the #1 problem areas on "modern" bicycle tires.


Seems to me like "No way Jose'" on the front due to the severe consequences
of a front blowout.... But the rear?


Same there. I had a very violent blow-out on a rear MTB tire. The kind
where a piece of tire is missing afterwards. KABOOM. Some cows panicked
and ran away. It obliterated the rear light, bent metal, destroyed the
charge controller circuit board and ripped some lighting wires. Yeah, I
got the bike stopped without crashing but it was a long walk home.
Especially since the bike could barely be rolled anymore due to the fact
that part of the tire was gone.

For the MTB I found the best tires to be from Asia, in particular from
Thailand. For the road bike I am still looking. The CST Conquistare 25mm
wire bead tire has great sidewalls but absolutely miserable service life
(was through at 1100mi). So that's out. When the last one is used up
I'll try a Vittoria Zaffira 25mm I bought from Jenson. Only single-ply
but looks sturdy. 2-ply or 3-ply would be better. Weight does not matter
at all to me, getting there without a flat or blown tire matters.

If I can't find anything I'll just buy a stack of Conquistare tires if I
find them on sale for under $15 and just throw them out at 1000mi.
Environmentally a poor choice but sometimes there ain't no other way.

My dream would be a 700*25mm downhill tire :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #7  
Old December 13th 17, 05:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lars Lehtonen[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

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Hash: SHA512

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Has anybody ridden different sizes of Compass tires and compared cruising
speeds and floatation?


I've only ridden the Rat Trap Pass, which I have on a rigid mountain
bike. I didn't like them at first, but I discovered that the pressure
gauge on my pump was bad and that I was running them dramatically
under-inflated.

I ride Southern California fire roads, which can be rocky and rutted.
I've had no problems with the slicks.

- ---
Lars Lehtonen
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  #8  
Old December 14th 17, 05:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 11:54:52 -0500, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

snip

For me, the relevant Compass slick widths are 35, 38, and 44 with two case
options: Regular and Lightweight. I'm thinking that anything below
35 would defeat my purpose, which is a tire that:


snip

I have a pair of Compass 26 x 1.8s that I bought for my birthday, which
was the only way I could justify such extravagant tire prices. I'm
sorry but nearly $90 for a g*****n bike tire is just too damn much
money. Compass is by no means the most expensive tire on the market,
indeed they seem to be in the middle of the spectrum these days. My
baseline comparison on that bike is Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1.75, which
were about $25 each.

I will also say up front that I am delberately skeptical about Jan's
various tests and claims. My tastes in bikes are somewhat similar to
his- with the primary exception of not liking very low trail bikes- and
I am suspicious of confirmation bias on my part as a result.

Conclusions:

1. If you run at Jan Heine's recommended pressures and weigh 230 lbs
ike me, handling will be unstable. The tire starts to collapse as you
lean it into corners. I run 50 psi in the front and about 55 ps in the
back and that solved that problem. The threshold of this phenomenon is
pretty sharp.

2. Jan makes various claims about the tires. The ones that I can say
are true my experience are (a) the tires are very, very quiet on the
road; (b) rolling resistance seems a bit lower but I find this only
noticeable at low speeds and while climbing, where it really does seem
noticeable. At least the feel of the tires is different. The quietness
is my favorite feature, actually- the Pasela tread gives a little
buzzing noise. They are a pleasant tire to ride and I would say I enjoy
the bike a more than I did with the Paselas.

3. The claims I can't confirm are (a) that the tires are faster than my
Paselas- my average speeds over my usual routes are within .1-.2 mph of
each other. Nothing else on the bike is different other than the tires-
even the same inner tubes were used; (b) tread longevity as I only have
about 400-500 miles on them so far.

4. The tires (I bought the extralights) are noticeably lighter than the
Panaracers. I don't have a suitable scale to weigh them. This is not
apples to apples as the Compass tires have folding beads and the Paselas
do not. But the tread is obviously thinner and the casing feels
thinner. There are testamonials of getting 5000 or more miles on a set
of these tires- if that works out for me, probably about 5 years of
riding on that bike, I will withdraw my complaint about price and buy
another set.

5. The tire casings seem more consistent than the Paselas- the Compass
tires don't have a wobble or distortion at the joint whereas every
Pasela I have ever used does. They fit well to the rims; mounting on
Sun CR18s was about par for the course with folding beads. I have old
school fabric rim strips on those rims and that makes mounting just a
smidge more difficult. I have not had any flats and have not tried to
remove them yet.
  #9  
Old December 14th 17, 04:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 8:24:56 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 11:54:52 -0500, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

snip

For me, the relevant Compass slick widths are 35, 38, and 44 with two case
options: Regular and Lightweight. I'm thinking that anything below
35 would defeat my purpose, which is a tire that:


snip

I have a pair of Compass 26 x 1.8s that I bought for my birthday, which
was the only way I could justify such extravagant tire prices. I'm
sorry but nearly $90 for a g*****n bike tire is just too damn much
money. Compass is by no means the most expensive tire on the market,
indeed they seem to be in the middle of the spectrum these days. My
baseline comparison on that bike is Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1.75, which
were about $25 each.

I will also say up front that I am delberately skeptical about Jan's
various tests and claims. My tastes in bikes are somewhat similar to
his- with the primary exception of not liking very low trail bikes- and
I am suspicious of confirmation bias on my part as a result.

Conclusions:

1. If you run at Jan Heine's recommended pressures and weigh 230 lbs
ike me, handling will be unstable. The tire starts to collapse as you
lean it into corners. I run 50 psi in the front and about 55 ps in the
back and that solved that problem. The threshold of this phenomenon is
pretty sharp.

2. Jan makes various claims about the tires. The ones that I can say
are true my experience are (a) the tires are very, very quiet on the
road; (b) rolling resistance seems a bit lower but I find this only
noticeable at low speeds and while climbing, where it really does seem
noticeable. At least the feel of the tires is different. The quietness
is my favorite feature, actually- the Pasela tread gives a little
buzzing noise. They are a pleasant tire to ride and I would say I enjoy
the bike a more than I did with the Paselas.

3. The claims I can't confirm are (a) that the tires are faster than my
Paselas- my average speeds over my usual routes are within .1-.2 mph of
each other. Nothing else on the bike is different other than the tires-
even the same inner tubes were used; (b) tread longevity as I only have
about 400-500 miles on them so far.

4. The tires (I bought the extralights) are noticeably lighter than the
Panaracers. I don't have a suitable scale to weigh them. This is not
apples to apples as the Compass tires have folding beads and the Paselas
do not. But the tread is obviously thinner and the casing feels
thinner. There are testamonials of getting 5000 or more miles on a set
of these tires- if that works out for me, probably about 5 years of
riding on that bike, I will withdraw my complaint about price and buy
another set.

5. The tire casings seem more consistent than the Paselas- the Compass
tires don't have a wobble or distortion at the joint whereas every
Pasela I have ever used does. They fit well to the rims; mounting on
Sun CR18s was about par for the course with folding beads. I have old
school fabric rim strips on those rims and that makes mounting just a
smidge more difficult. I have not had any flats and have not tried to
remove them yet.


I found the Paselas were prone to sidewall damage. I also had a problems mounting Gatorskins on a CR18s because of the shallow rim well, so choosing a tire that fits that rim is important.

I'm still amazed at the $90 on price tag. What about all the Schwalbe tires?

My complaints about tires typically involve tires that are sluggish. I've rarely felt like a well made 25/28mm tire was beating me to death on the road, although I've had some larger hard-case tires that rode like wagon wheels. Tire dimensions are no guaranty of comfort. I've got some 35mm studs that ride like tank tracks. I'm riding 32mm tires on my commuter for better footing in the rain, which has gone away for the last few weeks (bad news for snow at the resorts). They're fine, but nothing special in terms of comfort. They really feel no different than my 28mm Gatorskins except they're heavier and a little more sluggish.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #10  
Old December 14th 17, 05:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
(PeteCresswell)
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Posts: 2,790
Default Road Tires: Width vs Speed Penalties?

Per (PeteCresswell):
My rear Schwalbe LandCruiser 40x700 is worn out and I am shopping a
replacement and looking at CompassCycle's slicks.


I settled on one of Schwalbe's offerings:
http://tinyurl.com/ybdlqf4d
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Am now looking for something in a 35mm for the front that will cut down on
the face plants compared to a slick when, for instance, negotiating a wet
grass-covered slope.

I find Schwalbe's web site difficult to use.... *Looks* sophisticated, but
the functionality needs work.

Anybody got a 700c x 35, slightly knobby that they like?
--
Pete Cresswell
 




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