OT Flame War

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ogg Oggibly wrote:
[...]
They are busy right now trying to beg the corrupt UN to stop the
genocide in the Sudan. The UN is "monitoring" the situation. In the
meantime over a 1,000,000 Africans may be killed this year by a few bad
apples.

No, by a lot of bad apples. There's no shortage of bad apples in the
world, but they're not exclusively Muslim by any stretch of the
imagination. They get really nasty when power is at stake, religion (pick
any) is just an excuse used to manipulate people so other people can
exercise power. This happens in Islam, and Hinduism, and Judaism, and
Christianity etc.

Not a few but a group? How about a very large group? How about a religious
ethnic group of hundreds of thousands? How about a nation (Sudan) of
millions of Arabs who all happen to be Muslims?

Religion is not the excuse, it is the reason in the case of the Muslims. By
the way, most of India's problems are with the Muslims and for the same
universal reasons.

Note how old Pete here does not want to talk about Muslims, who at the
moment are committing all the atrocities in the world. He wants to talk
about Judaism and Hinduism of all things. He is as contemptible as the
Muslims he defends.

By concentrating your ire on only Muslims, when there are so many other
nasty pieces of work to choose from, you come across as not being even
handed. In China and Hindu India there are lots of girl who'll be
murdered just because they're not boys, but you only seem to care if it's
Muslims committing these crimes. That is not even handed. If you wish to
preach from the moral high ground (and you do) then it is vital that
you're even handed. If you aren't you just breed resentment, as has been
very well shown by e.g. Camp X Ray treatment of detainees in a way that
would certainly be unacceptable to the US if that were done to their
citizens. This sort of thing just comes across as picking arbitrary
fights and doesn't help anyone.

Note how old Pete here does not want to talk about Muslims, who at the
moment are committing all the atrocities in the world. He wants to talk
about Judaism and Hinduism of all things. He is as contemptible as the
Muslims he defends.

The following is a letter Amnesty International USA sent to the president
of Sudan:

And no mention of Muslims in it anywhere... Amnesty are interested in
people who violate human rights, whatever creed they claim. If you did
the same I'd heartily support your condemnations, but you only appear to
see the problems /if/ the perpetrator claims the creed you personally
disapprove of.

Note how old Pete here does not want to talk about Muslims, who at the
moment are committing all the atrocities in the world. He wants to talk
about Judaism and Hinduism of all things. He is as contemptible as the
Muslims he defends.

And the last Christian holy war 800 years or so relates to the current
global Islamic holy war how?

This really doesn't seem to have sunk in, but there isn't a current global
Islamic holy war. Hundreds of millions of people are *not* up in arms
fighting every non-Muslim they find. Most of the Muslims in the world are
going about their day to day business of doing their jobs, taking their
kids to school, cooking their meals and just living life. Some
impressionable ones have been whipped into a frenzy but that's really
about power, not religion, and it's happening in other places and other
religions too. Hindus are being whipped into a frenzy to kill Sikhs and
Moslems, Jews are being whipped into a frenzy to kill Moslems, and so on
and so on. But there is no global Islamic Jihad at the moment, or I'd
have been killed long ago by the Iranian postgrad down the corridor who is
a Muslim but doesn't want any part in your idea of what his religion is
meant to require him to do.

Note how old Pete here does not want to talk about Muslims, who at the
moment are committing all the atrocities in the world. He wants to talk
about Judaism and Hinduism of all things. He is as contemptible as the
Muslims he defends.

--
****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Simple. They build more lowracers per capita than any other nation.

As a lowracer owner I've always wondered why that was, at least 4 major
manufacturers all in one small country.

The Netherlands are flat and windy, two good reasons for riding low to
the ground and reclined. Also the Dutch are mostly very tall people, for
someone around 6.6' a race bike is not always a reasonable alternative.

And not to forget, there is a long existing bike culture in the
Netherlands and cycling is not only regarded as sport, but also as an
accepted form of transportation. There are more bikes than inhabitants
in this country.

Kurt

"Frank Olson" wrote in message
news:md_jd.157594$%k.9002@pd7tw2no...
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message
...

I find it funny you can't bring yourself to condemn atrocities on women
and children for the apparent reason that they are being committed my
Muslims.


"Action" - I lend financial support to Amnesty International (an
organization that tries to intervene in such atrocities). If, by this
action I have not adequately demonstrated my disgust at such atrocities
perhaps you can suggest a more effective means (my *saying so* in this
Group doesn't benefit anyone or anything but your own ego).

Are you a feminist too? Do you also give money to that worthless NOW? Does
it give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

You want me to tell you how to condemn Muslim atrocities against women and
children that won't benefit anyone?

As Ed Dolan would say - You are ****ed up.

As Arnold would say - You are a girly man.

Ogg O

Ogg Oggibly wrote:

You want me to tell you how to condemn Muslim atrocities against women and
children that won't benefit anyone?

You're still hung up on specifically /Muslim/ atrocities, and though
some Muslims commit atrocities they certainly don't have a monopoly.

Why not be like Amnesty International, who you do seem to respect, and
get hung up about *all* such atrocities and stop obsessing about the
creed of the perpetrator?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message
...

Jihad - A war by Muslims against unbelievers or enemies of Islam, carried
out as a religious duty.

Webster's New World College Dictionary


"The Islamic idea of jihad, which is derived from the Arabic root meaning
"to strive" or "to make an effort," connotes a wide range of meanings, from
an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to an outward material
struggle to promote justice and the Islamic social system. The former
meaning was emphasized by Sufis (Muslim mystics), who popularized a
tradition describing the inner jihad as greater than the outer jihad. When
used in the latter sense, jihad is closely identified with the injunction in
the Qur'an, the revelation of God to the prophet Muhammad, to the Muslim
community to "command the right and forbid the wrong" (3:104, 110). The
close connection of jihad with the struggle for justice is reinforced in the
hadith, the sayings and actions attributed to Muhammad. One of the best
known states that a Muslim must strive to avert injustice first by actions,
and if that is not possible, by words, and if that is not possible, at least
by intentions.

During the period of Qur'anic revelation while Muhammad was in Mecca
(610-622), jihad meant essentially a nonviolent struggle to spread Islam.
Following his move from Mecca to Medina in 622, and the establishment of an
Islamic state, fighting in self-defense was sanctioned by the Qur'an
(22:39). The Qur'an began referring increasingly to qital (fighting or
warfare) as one form of jihad. Two of the last verses on this topic (9:5,
29) suggest a war of conquest or conversion against all unbelievers."

Quoted in it's entirety from an article submitted by Shanu Wahid in response
to this:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:25:53 GMT "Frank Olson"
used 42 lines of text to write in newsgroup:
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent

Quoted in it's entirety from an article submitted by Shanu Wahid in response
to this:


I have nothing of value to add to that. I just wanted to be the one
to take this thread to *500* posts!


--
-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ogg Oggibly wrote:

You want me to tell you how to condemn Muslim atrocities against women
and children that won't benefit anyone?

You're still hung up on specifically /Muslim/ atrocities, and though some
Muslims commit atrocities they certainly don't have a monopoly.

Why not be like Amnesty International, who you do seem to respect, and get
hung up about *all* such atrocities and stop obsessing about the creed of
the perpetrator?

I have no problem condemning abuses of women and children be it my next door
neighbor, a local priest, a Hindu, or an Islamic State/Nation, or whoever.
You seem hung up on not accepting the wide spread and condoned abuses of
women and children by Islam, Islamic governments, and Muslim clerics.

The clock is ticking down on 13 year old Zhila Izad in Marivan, Iran. The
holy men will be casting their stones at her shortly. How do you think it
would feel to be killed by having large rocks hit you while you are kneeling
in a field. Why do you have such a HUGE PROBLEM admitting this is being
done in an Islamic Republic by Muslim clerics to a 13 year old girl whose 15
year old brother got her pregnant thereby dishonoring her family. For his
part in the crime her brother got a bad whipping and a scolding.

Have you written yet to comfort Zhila in her last days and to let her know
religion has nothing to do with those stones that will soon be flung at her?
Maybe you could copy Sherman's cartoons of children being stoned and send
them along too. I'm sure she would find them terribly amusing.

Ogg O

"Frank Olson" wrote in message
news:Rr4kd.163018$Pl.148472@pd7tw1no...
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message
...

Jihad - A war by Muslims against unbelievers or enemies of Islam, carried
out as a religious duty.

Webster's New World College Dictionary


"The Islamic idea of jihad, which is derived from the Arabic root meaning
"to strive" or "to make an effort," connotes a wide range of meanings,
from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to an outward
material struggle to promote justice and the Islamic social system. The
former meaning was emphasized by Sufis (Muslim mystics), who popularized a
tradition describing the inner jihad as greater than the outer jihad. When
used in the latter sense, jihad is closely identified with the injunction
in the Qur'an, the revelation of God to the prophet Muhammad, to the
Muslim community to "command the right and forbid the wrong" (3:104, 110).
The close connection of jihad with the struggle for justice is reinforced
in the hadith, the sayings and actions attributed to Muhammad. One of the
best known states that a Muslim must strive to avert injustice first by
actions, and if that is not possible, by words, and if that is not
possible, at least by intentions.

During the period of Qur'anic revelation while Muhammad was in Mecca
(610-622), jihad meant essentially a nonviolent struggle to spread Islam.
Following his move from Mecca to Medina in 622, and the establishment of
an Islamic state, fighting in self-defense was sanctioned by the Qur'an
(22:39). The Qur'an began referring increasingly to qital (fighting or
warfare) as one form of jihad. Two of the last verses on this topic (9:5,
29) suggest a war of conquest or conversion against all unbelievers."

Quoted in it's entirety from an article submitted by Shanu Wahid in
response to this:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990


It is apparently the last two verses (9:5, 29) that Shanu Wahid (who that)
mentioned that is causing the world so much trouble, grief, death, and
expense. And which must be stopped.

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

The Koran is what anyone wants to make of it. So is the Bible. Christians
stopped making a horror of the Bible several centuries ago.

Oh?? Really?? How do you explain the Biblical "horrors" of this century
then?? David Koresh. Jim Jones. Bountiful.

The Muslims are still making a horror of their Koran.

So are people that espouse Christianity.



"Islam" (as a religion) is open to interpretation just as
Chrisianity is. God gave us the ability to reason and the freedom to
interpret His Word. Individuals that choose to "spin" that Word abound.
"Extremists" exist in *every* faith. You can't condemn an entire people
because of the actions of a few insane individuals.

The very great numbers of Muslims who are choosing to interpret their
religion one way as opposed to another way are never just a few, but
rather constitute the vast majority in various regions of the world, most
particularly in the Middle East.

And this premise is based on what statistical evidence??



The same goes for Tom Sherman who prefers to bash Christianity and refer
us to cartoon sites making jokes of hanging women and stoning children
in lieu of condemning these atrocities.

Islamic fundamentalism isn't responsible for these atrocities. Men (and
even some women) are.

It is precisely and exactly Islamic fundamentalism that is indeed
responsible for the atrocities that Muslims are committing in the world
today. What men think matters and religious thought gone astray is just as
dangerous as any other kind of thought gone astray, maybe more so.

You obviously don't know how a "fundamentalist" interprets the Quran.



We've already covered the point there is not much you can do about what
is happening in other counties. As I told you earlier at least you
could speak up, take a stand, and condemn the abuse. You could even do
that now if wished.

I've always believed that "actions are louder than words". I find it
funny that people like you (and Mr. Dolan) would "insist" I "take a
stand" or condemn a certain action (or religion) to prove I'm "worthy" or
"a patriotic American". I'm one voice in a cosmic fugue (perhaps not as
strident as Mr. Dolan's, but at least I'm not horribly "off key").

You are an apologist for a religion that is an abomination. To equate
Islam with Christianity is your biggest mistake.

I *never* have "equated" one with the other.

One has evolved into a universal religion worthy of all mankind and the
other has never evolved and is suited only for savages.

And you sir are blind. I'm surprised actually. I thought you capable of at
least a semblance of intelligence.

Ogg has already shown to you what they are capable of when it comes to
their treatment of women.

Ogg has shown me what *men* are capable of. *Men* are capable of the same
thing in North America (and they're not necessarily Muslim either).

9/11 has shown the entire world what they are capable of in their
treatment of non-Muslims - and all in the name of their religion.

9/11 demonstrated what a few sick twisted individuals are capable of when
working in concert. I'm sure you'll continue to "extol their bravery", but
the bottom line is they were fanatics as well as Terrorists. Reasonable men
do not strap 10 lbs of Semtex to their toros and walk up to a bus load of
kids to blow it up. You should read a bit more on the psychology the
Terrorists employ at their so called "training camps". The men and women
that "voluteer" themselves for immolation are not rational beings.

It is their despicable religion that motivates them in almost everything
they think and do.

The Christian faith has been responsible for more atrocities than I can list
here. But do go on...

"Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message
...

"Frank Olson" wrote in
message news:md_jd.157594$%k.9002@pd7tw2no...
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message
...

I find it funny you can't bring yourself to condemn atrocities on women
and children for the apparent reason that they are being committed my
Muslims.


"Action" - I lend financial support to Amnesty International (an
organization that tries to intervene in such atrocities). If, by this
action I have not adequately demonstrated my disgust at such atrocities
perhaps you can suggest a more effective means (my *saying so* in this
Group doesn't benefit anyone or anything but your own ego).

Are you a feminist too? Do you also give money to that worthless NOW?
Does it give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

You want me to tell you how to condemn Muslim atrocities against women and
children that won't benefit anyone?

As Ed Dolan would say - You are ****ed up.

As Arnold would say - You are a girly man.

Ogg O


And you are??? Let's see... another "hypocritical Republican"?? You and
Mr. Ed are a match "made in Minnesota" (Mr. Dolan's version of "heaven on
earth").