Spoke Tensiometer questions

wrote in message ...

[snip]


Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later
the fastest, most powerful car on the production GT market with 1003hp
and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

http://members.fortunecity.com/freec...bugatti_01.htm
http://www.car-data.com/xpage.previe...i&model=veyron

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001
Power: 1001 HP
Cylinders: 16
Displacement: 7993 ccm
Top speed: 406 km/h
0-62 mph: 3.2 sec.
Gears: 7
Price: EUR 750,000

Jobst Brandt


Dear Jobst,

How nice to see someone who's not fascinated by image![1]

This sensible little commuter car looks infinitely more
practical than the posturing, useless SUV's that seem to
haunt your nightmares.[2]

A thousand-and-one horsepower sounds like just the thing for
sitting in rush-hour traffic!

Carl Fogel

P.S. I want one, too.

[1]
"The machismo of shifting gears has lost favor in most civilized
places. It has nothing to do with usefulness or economy. Today,
most large SUV's and long haul trucks (you know "18-wheelers") are
automatic, as are of course, formula race cars. That these drivers
use automatics has muted the common axiom that automatics are for
women (who can't master the mechanics), the common explanation when
the subject of sporty driving (a man's thing) arises. Heel-and-toe,
double clutching and all that gratuitous hand-and foot-work of the
initiated. Give me a break. I am amazed how many men cannot get
over these juvenile ideas about manliness."
--Jobst Brandt

[2]
"It's like the black SUV with black windows. It's the IN thing."
--Jobst Brandt

"The SUV folks can defend the superiority of their vehicles with
the same rhetoric we see here defending fashionable bicycles and
their equipment." --Jobst Brandt

"Currently black is beautiful, be that rims, tires, or SUV's (with
blackened windows." --Jobst Brandt

"The reason for using these frame materials IS to get lighter and
lighter... and more expensive to increase boasting rights. It runs
parallel to the larger and larger SUV with black everything offset by
chrome." --Jobst Brandt

"Forget it and just get a bigger (black) SUV with blackened windows,
jacked up chassis, rumble pipes, and spotlights." --Jobst Brandt

"The point is that driving truck is IN, and how SUV's are designed is
much like any fashion item, it can be as frivolous as hell, and not
make any difference." --Jobst Brandt

"Because you are considering a vehicle where image is all and gimmicks
are the routine. If I took these vehicles as a model, I would have
six inch diameter chrome exhaust pipes on my car. They must be good,
I saw them on a Jimmy!" --Jobst Brandt

"You probably drive an SUV with chromed jungle grills over the front
with bumper bars to help you get to the real rough stuff to ride bike."
--Jobst Brandt

"Around here there are huge traffic jams of SUV's at schools."
--Jobst Brandt

"Many of them seem to believe the sales pitch that are common on
TV and radio for BMW and MB cars and play the role of snobs
admirably. The whole "drive truck" craze is a poor symbol of our
society. Image is everything, substance nothing for these folks."
--Jobst Brandt

"These people are the ones most susceptible to advertising for things
they don't need but buy anyway, convinced they will enhance their
stature, be that a monster SUV or a car with pseudo aerodynamic
appendages." --Jobst Brandt

"By the way, this is the excuse given for all the SUV's with
knobby tires and 4WD we see in the shopping malls and among other
things, buzzing bicyclists on the road." --Jobst Brandt

"Hey, you're catching on. The jacked up monster truck with oversized
tires was once in the domain of the macho guys that put padding in
their jock strap or tape a salami onto their leg. Today, the closet
admirers of thes vehicles have come out of the closet and join the
bunch, now that you can buy them off the shelf, with darkened windows
if you want. "Git outta mah way, peon! Ah've go a big tough Jimmy!"
if you haven't noticed."

"Posturing is IN! No need for substance, when appearances are taken
in lieu of."
--Jobst Brandt

"Many ride MTB's for the same reason they drive truck. SUV for you and
me! "Me and my Jimmy can go anywhere." I'm tough! What??? You
don't drive truck? Who do you think you are anyway? Besides, my
truck is diesel and has duals and a long cab and a Knaak toolbox. You
ought to hear it rumble. Even the tires make more noise than a
motorcycle. My truck is so tall I have a step ladder for passengers
and the bumper is higher than a Miyata's roof. Me and Arnold Schw.
understand big cars." --Jobst Brandt

Carl Fogel writes:

For what it is worth, Porsche was headed towards bankruptcy a few
years back, but was saved by changes suggested by a consulting
firm formed of retired Toyota executives.

That's a lot of myth and lore. The company was saved by actions by
Ferdinand Piech, grandson of Ferdiand Porsche and CEO of VW-Audi,
who was instrumental in getting Wendelin Wiedeking to take over the
company:

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the
fastest, most powerful car on the production GT market with 1003hp
and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

http://members.fortunecity.com/freec...bugatti_01.htm
http://www.car-data.com/xpage.previe...i&model=veyron

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001
Power: 1001 HP
Cylinders: 16
Displacement: 7993 ccm
Top speed: 406 km/h
0-62 mph: 3.2 sec.
Gears: 7
Price: EUR 750,000

How nice to see someone who's not fascinated by image![1]

The whole Porsche business thrives mostly on an image based on its
history in competition with high performance cars. Some people like
to own such vehicles, the point here is that the company was not a
fabrication of Toyota but rather one man's business and technical
acumen. Under Piech, VW-Audi came from the Golf/Rabbit to a leading
auto maker competing in all catagories from Polo to Audi to Bently and
Bugatti.

Whether you want to own an expensive two seaters or not is yor
prerogative. I can do wothout it. However, I found working at
Porsche, designing a formula-1 car, challenging and educational for my
engineering carreer. I learned a lot and had the pleasure of working
with talented people. Our car, Driven by Dan Gurney, won a GP before
Mr. Porsche decided the sport was too expensive for the small company.

http://www.gpracing.net192.com/cars/data/496.cfm

This sensible little commuter car looks infinitely more practical
than the posturing, useless SUV's that seem to haunt your
nightmares.[2]

A thousand-and-one horsepower sounds like just the thing for
sitting in rush-hour traffic!

Carl Fogel

P.S. I want one, too.

So having done such a great research on the web, I see you found no
inconsistencies in my appraisal of truck owners. What does this have
to do with Toyota advising Porsche on how to run their business?

[1]
"The machismo of shifting gears has lost favor in most civilized
places. It has nothing to do with usefulness or economy. Today,
most large SUV's and long haul trucks (you know "18-wheelers") are
automatic, as are of course, formula race cars. That these drivers
use automatics has muted the common axiom that automatics are for
women (who can't master the mechanics), the common explanation when
the subject of sporty driving (a man's thing) arises. Heel-and-toe,
double clutching and all that gratuitous hand-and foot-work of the
initiated. Give me a break. I am amazed how many men cannot get
over these juvenile ideas about manliness."
--Jobst Brandt

[2]
"It's like the black SUV with black windows. It's the IN thing."
--Jobst Brandt

"The SUV folks can defend the superiority of their vehicles with
the same rhetoric we see here defending fashionable bicycles and
their equipment." --Jobst Brandt

"Currently black is beautiful, be that rims, tires, or SUV's (with
blackened windows." --Jobst Brandt

"The reason for using these frame materials IS to get lighter and
lighter... and more expensive to increase boasting rights. It runs
parallel to the larger and larger SUV with black everything offset by
chrome." --Jobst Brandt

"Forget it and just get a bigger (black) SUV with blackened windows,
jacked up chassis, rumble pipes, and spotlights." --Jobst Brandt

"The point is that driving truck is IN, and how SUV's are designed is
much like any fashion item, it can be as frivolous as hell, and not
make any difference." --Jobst Brandt

"Because you are considering a vehicle where image is all and gimmicks
are the routine. If I took these vehicles as a model, I would have
six inch diameter chrome exhaust pipes on my car. They must be good,
I saw them on a Jimmy!" --Jobst Brandt

"You probably drive an SUV with chromed jungle grills over the front
with bumper bars to help you get to the real rough stuff to ride bike."
--Jobst Brandt

"Around here there are huge traffic jams of SUV's at schools."
--Jobst Brandt

"Many of them seem to believe the sales pitch that are common on
TV and radio for BMW and MB cars and play the role of snobs
admirably. The whole "drive truck" craze is a poor symbol of our
society. Image is everything, substance nothing for these folks."
--Jobst Brandt

"These people are the ones most susceptible to advertising for things
they don't need but buy anyway, convinced they will enhance their
stature, be that a monster SUV or a car with pseudo aerodynamic
appendages." --Jobst Brandt

"By the way, this is the excuse given for all the SUV's with
knobby tires and 4WD we see in the shopping malls and among other
things, buzzing bicyclists on the road." --Jobst Brandt

"Hey, you're catching on. The jacked up monster truck with oversized
tires was once in the domain of the macho guys that put padding in
their jock strap or tape a salami onto their leg. Today, the closet
admirers of thes vehicles have come out of the closet and join the
bunch, now that you can buy them off the shelf, with darkened windows
if you want. "Git outta mah way, peon! Ah've go a big tough Jimmy!"
if you haven't noticed."

"Posturing is IN! No need for substance, when appearances are taken
in lieu of."
--Jobst Brandt

"Many ride MTB's for the same reason they drive truck. SUV for you and
me! "Me and my Jimmy can go anywhere." I'm tough! What??? You
don't drive truck? Who do you think you are anyway? Besides, my
truck is diesel and has duals and a long cab and a Knaak toolbox. You
ought to hear it rumble. Even the tires make more noise than a
motorcycle. My truck is so tall I have a step ladder for passengers
and the bumper is higher than a Miyata's roof. Me and Arnold Schw.
understand big cars." --Jobst Brandt


Jobst Brandt

"Jay Beattie" wrote in message ...
wrote in message
...

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later
the fastest, most powerful car on the production GT market with
1003hp and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

Very nice, but where do you put the roof rack? -- Jay Beattie.

If you look closely you will see there is a convenient luggage rack
behind the rear window.

--
Dave...

wrote in message ...

[snip]

What does this have
to do with Toyota advising Porsche on how to run their business?


Dear Jobst,

Gosh, I thought I saw a fellow drooling at the
sight of a thousand-and-one horsepower sports
car and wondered what it had to do with Toyota
advising Porsche how to run their business.

Usually, he's ranting in rec.bicycles.tech about
how silly some kind of overpowered, overpriced
cars are. He calls them SUV's and Jimmys.

Sorry--he really looked like you.

Carl Fogel

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer? Absolute
tension is not important-eveness of tension around the wheel IS important. If
you measured the same wheel with 3 different tensiometers, you'll get 3 very
different measures. So which one is right? In practice, it doesn't matter. What
they are good for is draining your wallet and for novice builders who don;t
have any "feel" yet. It might help keep them out of trouble, but I doubt it.
In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I have never once seen an amateur wheel I would
ride on. Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20 wheels or so... So I suggest
that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true and round as possible as you tension
up, lube the nipple-rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and sound. A
human ear can hear far more subtle differences than the hand can feel. When
they all feel the same, sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say keep doin' what
you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

(Bikefixr) wrote:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer?
Absolute
tension is not important-eveness of tension around the wheel IS important. If
you measured the same wheel with 3 different tensiometers, you'll get 3 very
different measures. So which one is right? In practice, it doesn't matter.
What
they are good for is draining your wallet and for novice builders who don;t
have any "feel" yet. It might help keep them out of trouble, but I doubt it.
In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I have never once seen an amateur wheel I would
ride on. Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20 wheels or so... So I
suggest
that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true and round as possible as you
tension
up, lube the nipple-rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and sound.
A
human ear can hear far more subtle differences than the hand can feel. When
they all feel the same, sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say keep doin' what
you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

Sixteen thousand wheels and you don't stress relieve? Don't you get
complaints about broken spokes?

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

VCopelan wrote:
After years of wheel building without a spoke tensiometer, I'm
considering buying one. I've been looking at three different spoke
tensiometers. The Park tool at under $50, the Wheelsmith tool at around
$120, and the DT Proline dial tensiometer at $250. I've read the
critical comments about the Park tool from Jobst Brandt. The Wheelsmith
and Park tool appear similiar. Which tool should I consider?



I have the Park tensionometer. I almost got the Wheelsmith brand
but tried the Park and it works great. I couldn't really justif
spending more on the Wheelsmith one, when the Park does the sam
thing at half the cost

I'm kinda in agreement with the other guy. You'll find that you reall
only use it for a few spokes to make sure that they are up to th
tension you are aiming for. The rest of the spokes you just want to b
sure that they are evenly tensioned. You don't really need it, but
like mine because I am certain that I am in the range, tensionwise, tha
I set out to be in when I build the wheels


-

(Bikefixr) wrote:
You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer?
Absolute
tension is not important-eveness of tension around the wheel IS important.
-snip-
When they all feel the same, sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say keep doin' what
you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

Ted Bennett wrote:
Sixteen thousand wheels and you don't stress relieve? Don't you get
complaints about broken spokes?

Before The Book, we stress-relieved effectively because the
theory at the time was that you had to pull the spokes hard
to bed the curve into the hubshell -so the mating surface
was larger than a point. Either way we pulled them very
tight in pairs before final tension for ten years before
reading why.

Perhaps bikfixr's "minor tweaks" involve momentarily raising
spoke tension with his hands similarly.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

bikefixr- You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a
tensiometer? Absolute
tension is not important-eveness of tension around the wheel IS important.
BRBR

Not quite. Even tension at 75% of what the tension should be makes for a porr
wheel.

bikefixr What
they are good for is draining your wallet and for novice builders who don;t
have any "feel" yet. BRBR

I have been building wheels for 19 years and altho I can 'feel' tension pretty
close, i still use a tensionometer on every wheel I either build or true.


bikefixr I use subjective feel and sound.

Are your hands tired at the end of the day? Mine are, does feel change?

A tensionometer, not expensive, particularly when used for years, will
certainly not make his wheels poorer.


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Bikefixr) writes:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a
tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-eveness of tension
around the wheel IS important. If you measured the same wheel with 3
different tensiometers, you'll get 3 very different measures. So
which one is right?

Reminds me of the Chinese proverb: a man with a clock knows what
time it is; a man with two clocks is never sure.

In practice, it doesn't matter. What they are good for is draining
your wallet and for novice builders who don't have any "feel"
yet. It might help keep them out of trouble, but I doubt it.

Why so cynical? It is actually helpful for beginners to prevent gross
under- or over-tensioning without having to deform a rim in the
process.

In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I have never once seen an amateur wheel
I would ride on.

So you wouldn't ride one of Jobst's wheels?

Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20 wheels or so...

Presumably somebody did.

So I suggest that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true and round as
possible as you tension up, lube the nipple-rim interface
regularly. I use subjective feel and sound. A human ear can hear far
more subtle differences than the hand can feel. When they all feel
the same, sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say keep
doin' what you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

While much of what you say is true- especially the sensitivity of
judging relative tension by plucking spokes and listening to the
pitch- for the average person building a few wheels for themselves
this sort of proficiency will never develop. I've built hundreds of
wheels, but I can't tell if they're adequately tensioned just by
plucking a spoke or squeezing them. They could be significantly
undertensioned and still sound or feel OK, depending on a number of
factors (wheel size, pattern, spoke gauge, etc).

Oddly enough, you don't recommend stress relieving, probably the
single most important step you can take for ensuring good service
life of the spokes.