Danger! Danger! (Worst liability waiver?)

On Feb 10, 7:00*am, wrote:
On Feb 9, 11:42 pm, Ron Wallenfang wrote:

On Feb 8, 9:59 pm, wrote:

Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?

Speaking as a lawyer, I don't have any problem with it. *Since I went
to law school in the 1960s, there has been an explosion in tort
liability, reaching into nooks and crannies that one never would have
imagined. ...

My solution is legislation to restore a broad degree of charitable and
religious immunity. *But there's a powerful political party that is in
the hip pocket of the trial lawyers' lobby, among other lobbies, and a
legislative solution is difficult. *So you can look for prudent event
sponsors to be asking for waivers.

But seriously, is it really necessary to contrive a list of a dozen or
so improbable, terrifying disasters to construct a workable waiver?

As many here know, I'm dismayed by the fashion for treating bicycling
as extreme and death-defying. *I think it hurts cyclists as a whole,
because it discourages people from riding, and it leads to
unsympathetic motorists, cops, judges and juries. *("What the hell is
he doing riding his bike on the road?" and "He should have known the
risks before he got hit by the guy running the stop sign.")

I understand that there are people who need to be sued; but yes, I do
think there are far too many predatory lawyers.

Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
less fear-mongering. *I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
and well into "ludicrous."

Do you really disagree? *Should _all_ waivers read like that?

- Frank Krygowski

I agree. The laundry list style makes it seem like it is all inclusive
(and off putting at that!).

It should be enough to say that unforeen things may happen resulting
in injury.

Joseph

On Feb 10, 12:00*am, wrote:


Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
less fear-mongering. *I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
and well into "ludicrous."

Do you really disagree? *Should _all_ waivers read like that?

- Frank Krygowski

I don't disagree with that. A short form, worded well, would be as
effective.

Frank wrote:
Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
less fear-mongering. I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
and well into "ludicrous."

Maybe GOBA 2007 featured an excess of whining ("Make it stop
raining!") and maybe someone went dancing in cleats on a city street.

I'm on the GOBA discussion group, will float this over there.

--Karen D.

Ron Wallenfang wrote:
...
Consider, for example, this argument - adapted only slightly from a
case in which I was actually involved - on behalf of the family of a
man killed when he hit a sinkhole and veered into the path of an
oncoming car: the sponsors knew or should have known the Smith road
had a bunch of sinkholes, but negligently failed to re-route on Jones
road, just a mile away. Also, the city is liable for not fixing the
sinkhole, and architect who designed the road some years earlier is
liable for failing to properly specify how to compact the base, the
contractor is liable for not compacting it properly, and the inspector
is liable for watching the contractor mess up....

Hey, when did architects get into the business of designing roads and
pavements?

I have the understanding that the civil drawings would be signed and
stamped by a PE, not an architect (at least they have been on the few
hundred plan sets I have looked at).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Feb 10, 8:38*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Ron Wallenfang wrote:
...
Consider, for example, this argument - adapted only slightly from a
case in which I was actually involved - on behalf of the family of a
man killed when he hit a sinkhole and veered into the path of an
oncoming car: *the sponsors knew or should have known the Smith road
had a bunch of sinkholes, but negligently failed to re-route on Jones
road, just a mile away. *Also, the city is liable for not fixing the
sinkhole, and architect who designed the road some years earlier is
liable for failing to properly specify how to compact the base, the
contractor is liable for not compacting it properly, and the inspector
is liable for watching the contractor mess up....

Hey, when did architects get into the business of designing roads and
pavements?

I have the understanding that the civil drawings would be signed and
stamped by a PE, not an architect (at least they have been on the few
hundred plan sets I have looked at).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

You are correct. In the case at issue, where I in fact represented
the design professional, it was a PE. I use the terms "architect" and
"professional engineer" interchangeably, because the construction
contracts I write include definitions that do that. Specifically AIA
1997 forms B141 and B151, and 2007 forms B101 and B102 are called
"Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Architect", but are
regularly used for PEs as well, with the contract draftsman adding the
needed clarification. But the reader here would have no reason to
know that. Mea culpa.

I wrote:
MaybeGOBA2007 featured an excess of whining ("Make it stop
raining!") and maybe someone went dancing in cleats on a city street.

I'm on the GOBA discussion group, will float this over there.

A pair of respondents are saying that GOBA has always used this waiver
(one says she's done 11 GOBAs, and went on to explain the concept of
liability to moi, thankyouverymuch). But Columbus AYH/Outdoor Pursuits
would not have known, in the first year or two, that participants
would be dancing or swimming or "dining."

FWIW, GOBA was probably the first major ride to prohibit participation
by children of a certain age (two years old, if memory serves). The
reason? Someone brought a trailer tot on a local COP ride, an incident
occurred, and either the parent sued or TPTB decided to reduce their
exposure. Many family riders were displeased with the GOBA action, "we
have to stay home because Jeffie's birthday is two weeks after the
ride," etc. I have no knowledge of the current restrictions.

HTH

--Karen D.

wrote in message
...
I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
rides. I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?

Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
Adventure. I've pasted about a third of it below.

(Surprisingly, no mention of meteorite strikes!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In signing this agreement for myself or for the named participant (if
the participant is under age 18), I know that those participating in
The 2008 Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure (GOBA) will be exposed to the
risks of serious bodily injury, sickness, death, or loss of property
due to the circumstances inherent in this event including the
negligent acts or omissions of others. I also understand and am aware
that there are a variety of specific risks and dangers inherent in a
voluntary bicycling event such as GOBA including, without limitation,
falls, collisions with other bicyclists, motor vehicles or stationary
objects; adverse weather conditions; and those caused by conditions of
the road. I also understand that by participating in GOBA I will be
riding my bicycle on public roads with many other bicyclists, some of
whom may be inexperienced at riding in groups. I also understand that
the large number of bicyclists in GOBA many of whom are inexperienced,
adds a further element of danger.

I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.

I understand as well that I will be camping outdoors during GOBA and
that this necessarily involves being exposed to the elements including
the risk of unpredictable and possibly dangerous weather conditions
such as severe or violent thunderstorms, rain, hail, lightning, wind,
and tornadoes either during the day or at night. In exchange for being
permitted to participate in GOBA I voluntarily agree to assume all of
these and the other risks inherent in GOBA....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
all the rest.

Dancing! Dining! Wind! Rain!

Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?

- Frank Krygowski

thats why i have nothing to do whatsoever with group sponsered rides

peter