|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#221
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
Ryan Cousineau writes:
ObBike: why have the Germans never acquired a reputation for making serious road bikes? Is there some boutique make I'm missing? Storck? |
Ads |
#222
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 24, 11:46*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article , *Donald Munro wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: The same thing was said about you heathen chinks. Somehow I'd bet you'd be insulted by that yet you have no problem using precisely the same logic on Arabs. The "heathen chinks" had a sophisticated civilization going while your ancestors were still walking around in loincloths. * *True. And while I more or less agree with Henry's position on this (you can't force it on them), I don't think that Arabs are incapable of having a working democracy, rather they've never had the opportunity to really have one. Of course they're capable, just not right now. It takes a generation or more, once a nation starts going down that path, to develop an independent judiciary. Without a tradition of an independent judiciary a democracy cannot succeed. Witness the failure of democracy in Pakistan. Developing a successful democracy is a long process. It takes decades of constructing strong institutions. It's not as simple as holding an election. |
#223
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 25, 2:23*am, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article , *Bill C wrote: On Jan 24, 2:06*am, Howard Kveck wrote: * *People here had seen how bad the white led governments of Rhodesia were and were supportive of the black's drive to get out from under that oppressive rule.. Does that seem like a bad cause to be in favor of? I don't think so. As I said below, Mugabe didn't really come to the fore until almost the end of Smith's rule. So I don't remember any rallies that were outright and directly supportive of Mugabe. I was around then - in college, in SF and Berkeley around political people. I don't recall Mugabe's name being used then, Bill. I distinctly do recall his name being used as an icon of the People here. Those People were being supplied their weapons by the Soviet Union and assisted by Cuban troops and advisors on the ground. It was pretty obvious what was in store for the Country after they took power. The regime WAS oppressive, no debating that. They also, inclusive of the native population had the lowest infant mortality, highest literacy rate, highest gdp, longest life expectancy, and fed the rest of sub-saharan Africa. How's that worked out? Media attention on Zimbabwen vaporized. *Yep. They sure as hell weren't going to give a lot of coverage to a marxist HERO doing what they almost all inevitably do after the support for him as a "freedom fighter" had been so strong.. * *Bill, please. Media has a short attention span, particularly on issues like this. They move on. It really isn't because the media is (or was) all happy because a Marxist was gaining power. "The Liberal Media" is a myth. Howard that's your opinion. I think it's totally wrong, but it depends on your position as an observer what you consider "liberal". I'd say that you are far enough out that way that what most people would consider either moderate, or slightly liberal you see as right wing. There've been numerous examples of this. * *I don't think the average person here knew who Mugabe is until Zimbabwe started getting attention for having huge inflation and seizing farms. They just haven't been on the radar screen, Bill. it's not all that uncommon, especially in Africa. For example, what do you think is the deadliest conflict since WW II? At least 3.8 million people have died in only six years in the area around the Democratic Republic of the Congo. How much of that do we hear about in the news? *I see a fair amount, but that's because of the Euro sources. Agreed here in the US it's not an issue, but it doesn't have a huge "freedom fighter" to exploit, as Zimbabwe did. * *I think they don't cover it because they aren't interested, not because they don't see a "freedom fighter" angle. There are plenty of those kinds of fights going on in Africa right now that are getting even less coverage than the DRC war is, such as Western Sahara and Sahrawi. *We're gonna agree to disagree. Neither of us can demonstrate the level of coverage and support where we were back then, at least reasonably easily. * *I was thinking about this earlier today and that's exactly what I realized. All I can do is describe my experiences (coming from a highly politicized family and spending a lot of time around other politicized people and situations), I just didn't see what you're desccribing (active support for Mugabe) - it was all aimed at the cause, not the personalitiies. Howard, here it was both the situation, and the Cult of Personality. The Heroes of The Revolution! Folks here still have their posters of Marx, Castro, Gueverra, Ortega, etc...up. They are STILL perfect heroes to lots of people here. -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard * * * * * * * * * *Now it's raining pitchforks and women, * * * * * * * * * * *But I've already got a pitchfork... * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Bill C |
#224
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 25, 2:47*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
How I got involved in this political discussion, I don't know (actually, I do know: because I am a dumbass). But while I haven't read the book, I did hear him interviewed at length, and his subject is, more precisely, that the statist impulses of fascism (and he's talking generally about all the fascists here; Mussolini as much as Hitler, and probably Franco too), and modern-day instances of the totalitarian dream. He notes that in the rise of fascists, "totalitarianism" was the selling point, not the nightmare. This is me speaking, but it might make sense to think of totalitarian meaning to happy fascists what "holistic" is taken to mean today: an all-encompassing philosophy. Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child." More good stuff snipped. IMO he's out to lunch with Coulter, but that's not the point. He's using the fact that "liberals" frequently make noises like Marx and Mao, and celebrate their ideas, and support people who spout their ideas.\ The problem with this is that everytime those have been put into practice fully you end up with something remarkably like Fascism. You have State control of all resources, and products, for the benefit of the State. You have total State control over the people, for their own good, and the good of the State. You have a massive, and abusise security force. You have a handfull of people at the top voilently exploiting the people for their own benefit, which is the same as the State. This is why the language is useless, or at best difficult. The Stalinist/Maoist regimes haven't been functionally, significantly different than the fascist is real world result. IMO if you support Castro, and Chavez you support a fascist, and proto-fascist. Bill C |
#225
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
Dans le message de
, Kurgan Gringioni a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré : It takes a generation or more, once a nation starts going down that path, to develop an independent judiciary. Without a tradition of an independent judiciary a democracy cannot succeed. Democracy need not be a goal. It's just the current fad, given a long history of mankind. There have been independent judges throughout history, and it is not the office, but the wisdom, that sustains itself. Further, the conceit of independence is flaccid. It is designed to follow legislative or executive rules, and when it goes beyond the bounds of such strictures, it can become its own form of despotism. -- Bonne route ! Sandy Verneuil-sur-Seine FR |
#226
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 25, 12:47 am, "
wrote: On Jan 25, 12:47 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote: Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child." Oh come on. Fascism was a basically nationalist movement. That's not "it takes a village." He's talking about the background to the statement -- that is the obfuscation. It sounds good on the surface, of course, but is total weasel language. It is structured so that anyone who objects "hates children." I can't believe you swallow this retarded crap. You are focusing on a bunch of irrelevent superficial and peripheral crap so you don't have to face reality. This again is the birth-room of Ben Franklin. "Don't be a dumbass, dumbass." -- BF, 1759 If you didn't learn it by middle-school, your first week of poli-sci class should have taught you that once the descent is made to authoritarianism, the path and language don't distinguish the result -- that is the point being made. Fascism, communism, and socialism all result in the same basic statist structu rulers and the ruled. Like Read pointed out, the differences are merely incidental details. You are a statist. "We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and start worrying about what is best for society!" -- Hillary Clinton, 1993 "...we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men." -- Adolf Hitler, 10-7-33 "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004. We need to stop telling people what they want to hear, and start telling them what they need to hear." -- Obama |
#227
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: "Bret" wrote in message ... I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire department? Are they evil too? Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is equally bad. I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of your statement? Imagine that. People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into being altruistic. If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state. There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it. The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if people are indeed altruistic and value these things. What it amounts to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. The word for that is tyranny. What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that not everyone agrees with him/her. It is basic obfuscation of simple language. You've been had. You have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends. Tyranny is altruism Coercion is defense Destruction is creation Stealing is giving Violence is kindness "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." --- George Orwell, "1984" |
#228
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote: On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: "Bret" wrote in message .... I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire department? Are they evil too? Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is equally bad. I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of your statement? Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into being altruistic. If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state. There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it. The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that is tyranny. What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that not everyone agrees with him/her. It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends. Tyranny is altruism Coercion is defense Destruction is creation Stealing is giving Violence is kindness "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." *--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead. I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire department question. Bret |
#229
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
Bret wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote: On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote: On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: "Bret" wrote in message . com. .. I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire department? Are they evil too? Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else i s equally bad. I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of your statement? Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into being altruistic. If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state. There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it. The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that is tyranny. What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that not everyone agrees with him/her. It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends. Tyranny is altruism Coercion is defense Destruction is creation Stealing is giving Violence is kindness "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." *--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead. I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire department question. Bret Bret: Were it not for the interference of government (Tom) or the excessive drain on individual creativity and spirit by the government (Greg), someone would have invented the perfect building material that could never catch fire so fire departments would be unecessary. Side note: Benjamin Franklin founded the first volunteer fire departments in the colonies. -- Bill Asher |
#230
|
|||
|
|||
OT Is anyone really surprised?
On Jan 25, 4:48*pm, William Asher wrote:
Bret wrote: On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote: On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote: On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: "Bret" wrote in message . com. .. I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire department? Are they evil too? Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else i s equally bad. I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of your statement? Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into being altruistic. If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state. There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it. The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that is tyranny. What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that not everyone agrees with him/her. It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends. Tyranny is altruism Coercion is defense Destruction is creation Stealing is giving Violence is kindness "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." *--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead. I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire department question. Bret Bret: Were it not for the interference of government (Tom) or the excessive drain on individual creativity and spirit by the government (Greg), someone would have invented the perfect building material that could never catch fire so fire departments would be unecessary. * Side note: *Benjamin Franklin founded the first volunteer fire departments in the colonies. * -- Bill Asher- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - More likely someone would've shot them, and me since without the Guvmint it'd be open season on opinionated, annoying folks. Hell this place'd be pretty damned quiet wouldn't it? Bill C |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Who's Surprised? | [email protected] | Racing | 39 | October 22nd 07 05:38 PM |
I'm surprised... | MagillaGorilla | Racing | 3 | September 5th 06 03:50 AM |
Surprised it hasnt been said but... | [email protected] | Racing | 0 | February 20th 06 12:07 AM |
Surprised, not surprised | db. | Recumbent Biking | 0 | January 23rd 06 11:48 PM |
Surprised you people aren't talking about this | Lame Acer | Racing | 1 | August 20th 04 06:53 PM |