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  #221  
Old January 25th 08, 11:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
A R:nen
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Posts: 147
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

Ryan Cousineau writes:

ObBike: why have the Germans never acquired a reputation for making
serious road bikes? Is there some boutique make I'm missing?


Storck?
Ads
  #222  
Old January 25th 08, 01:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Kurgan Gringioni
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Posts: 1,796
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 24, 11:46*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article ,
*Donald Munro wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:
The same thing was said about you heathen chinks. Somehow I'd bet you'd be
insulted by that yet you have no problem using precisely the same logic on
Arabs.


The "heathen chinks" had a sophisticated civilization
going while your ancestors were still walking around
in loincloths.


* *True. And while I more or less agree with Henry's position on this (you can't
force it on them), I don't think that Arabs are incapable of having a working
democracy, rather they've never had the opportunity to really have one.




Of course they're capable, just not right now.

It takes a generation or more, once a nation starts going down that
path, to develop an independent judiciary. Without a tradition of an
independent judiciary a democracy cannot succeed.

Witness the failure of democracy in Pakistan.

Developing a successful democracy is a long process. It takes decades
of constructing strong institutions. It's not as simple as holding an
election.
  #223  
Old January 25th 08, 01:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bill C
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Posts: 3,199
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 2:23*am, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article ,
*Bill C wrote:





On Jan 24, 2:06*am, Howard Kveck wrote:



* *People here had seen how bad the white led governments of Rhodesia were and were
supportive of the black's drive to get out from under that oppressive rule.. Does that
seem like a bad cause to be in favor of? I don't think so. As I said below, Mugabe
didn't really come to the fore until almost the end of Smith's rule. So I don't
remember any rallies that were outright and directly supportive of Mugabe. I was
around then - in college, in SF and Berkeley around political people. I don't recall
Mugabe's name being used then, Bill.


I distinctly do recall his name being used as an icon of the People
here. Those People were being supplied their weapons by the Soviet
Union and assisted by Cuban troops and advisors on the ground. It was
pretty obvious what was in store for the Country after they took
power.
The regime WAS oppressive, no debating that. They also, inclusive of
the native population had the lowest infant mortality, highest
literacy rate, highest gdp, longest life expectancy, and fed the rest
of sub-saharan Africa.
How's that worked out?

Media attention on Zimbabwen vaporized.




*Yep. They sure as hell weren't going to give a lot of coverage to a
marxist HERO doing what they almost all inevitably do after the
support for him as a "freedom fighter" had been so strong..


* *Bill, please. Media has a short attention span, particularly on issues like this.
They move on. It really isn't because the media is (or was) all happy because a
Marxist was gaining power. "The Liberal Media" is a myth.


Howard that's your opinion. I think it's totally wrong, but it depends
on your position as an observer what you consider "liberal". I'd say
that you are far enough out that way that what most people would
consider either moderate, or slightly liberal you see as right wing.
There've been numerous examples of this.

* *I don't think the average person here knew who Mugabe is until Zimbabwe
started getting attention for having huge inflation and seizing farms. They just
haven't been on the radar screen, Bill. it's not all that uncommon, especially in
Africa. For example, what do you think is the deadliest conflict since WW II? At
least 3.8 million people have died in only six years in the area around the
Democratic Republic of the Congo. How much of that do we hear about in the news?


*I see a fair amount, but that's because of the Euro sources. Agreed
here in the US it's not an issue, but it doesn't have a huge "freedom
fighter" to exploit, as Zimbabwe did.


* *I think they don't cover it because they aren't interested, not because they don't
see a "freedom fighter" angle. There are plenty of those kinds of fights going on in
Africa right now that are getting even less coverage than the DRC war is, such as
Western Sahara and Sahrawi.

*We're gonna agree to disagree. Neither of us can demonstrate the level of coverage
and support where we were back then, at least reasonably easily.


* *I was thinking about this earlier today and that's exactly what I realized. All I
can do is describe my experiences (coming from a highly politicized family and
spending a lot of time around other politicized people and situations), I just didn't
see what you're desccribing (active support for Mugabe) - it was all aimed at the
cause, not the personalitiies.


Howard, here it was both the situation, and the Cult of Personality.
The Heroes of The Revolution! Folks here still have their posters of
Marx, Castro, Gueverra, Ortega, etc...up. They are STILL perfect
heroes to lots of people here.

--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard

* * * * * * * * * *Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
* * * * * * * * * * *But I've already got a pitchfork...

* * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Bill C
  #224  
Old January 25th 08, 02:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bill C
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Posts: 3,199
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 2:47*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

How I got involved in this political discussion, I don't know (actually,
I do know: because I am a dumbass). But while I haven't read the book, I
did hear him interviewed at length, and his subject is, more precisely,
that the statist impulses of fascism (and he's talking generally about
all the fascists here; Mussolini as much as Hitler, and probably Franco
too), and modern-day instances of the totalitarian dream.

He notes that in the rise of fascists, "totalitarianism" was the selling
point, not the nightmare. This is me speaking, but it might make sense
to think of totalitarian meaning to happy fascists what "holistic" is
taken to mean today: an all-encompassing philosophy.

Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the
phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child."

More good stuff snipped.


IMO he's out to lunch with Coulter, but that's not the point.
He's using the fact that "liberals" frequently make noises like Marx
and Mao, and celebrate their ideas, and support people who spout their
ideas.\
The problem with this is that everytime those have been put into
practice fully you end up with something remarkably like Fascism.
You have State control of all resources, and products, for the
benefit of the State. You have total State control over the people,
for their own good, and the good of the State. You have a massive, and
abusise security force. You have a handfull of people at the top
voilently exploiting the people for their own benefit, which is the
same as the State.
This is why the language is useless, or at best difficult. The
Stalinist/Maoist regimes haven't been functionally, significantly
different than the fascist is real world result.
IMO if you support Castro, and Chavez you support a fascist, and
proto-fascist.
Bill C
  #225  
Old January 25th 08, 02:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Sandy
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Posts: 564
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

Dans le message de
,
Kurgan Gringioni a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

It takes a generation or more, once a nation starts going down that
path, to develop an independent judiciary. Without a tradition of an
independent judiciary a democracy cannot succeed.


Democracy need not be a goal. It's just the current fad, given a long
history of mankind. There have been independent judges throughout history,
and it is not the office, but the wisdom, that sustains itself. Further,
the conceit of independence is flaccid. It is designed to follow
legislative or executive rules, and when it goes beyond the bounds of such
strictures, it can become its own form of despotism.

--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR


  #226  
Old January 25th 08, 09:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
SLAVE of THE STATE
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Posts: 1,774
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 12:47 am, "
wrote:
On Jan 25, 12:47 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the
phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child."


Oh come on. Fascism was a basically nationalist
movement. That's not "it takes a village."


He's talking about the background to the statement -- that is the
obfuscation. It sounds good on the surface, of course, but is total
weasel language. It is structured so that anyone who objects "hates
children." I can't believe you swallow this retarded crap. You are
focusing on a bunch of irrelevent superficial and peripheral crap so
you don't have to face reality. This again is the birth-room of Ben
Franklin.

"Don't be a dumbass, dumbass." -- BF, 1759

If you didn't learn it by middle-school, your first week of poli-sci
class should have taught you that once the descent is made to
authoritarianism, the path and language don't distinguish the result
-- that is the point being made.

Fascism, communism, and socialism all result in the same basic statist
structu rulers and the ruled. Like Read pointed out, the
differences are merely incidental details.

You are a statist.


"We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and
start worrying about what is best for society!" -- Hillary Clinton,
1993

"...we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices
for the community, for his fellow men." -- Adolf Hitler, 10-7-33

"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common
good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004.

We need to stop telling people what they want to hear, and start
telling them what they need to hear." -- Obama







  #227  
Old January 25th 08, 09:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
SLAVE of THE STATE
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Posts: 1,774
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

"Bret" wrote in message


...


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.

If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.

The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. The word for that
is tyranny.

What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.

It is basic obfuscation of simple language. You've been had. You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.

Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
--- George Orwell, "1984"



  #228  
Old January 25th 08, 10:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bret
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Posts: 797
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:





On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


....


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.

If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.

The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.

What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.

It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.

Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.

I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.

Bret
  #229  
Old January 25th 08, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
William Asher
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Posts: 1,930
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

Bret wrote:

On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:





On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


.
com.

..

I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the
fire department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything
else i

s
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department
doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the
absolute truth of your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.

If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.

The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.

What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.

It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.

Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.

I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.

Bret


Bret:

Were it not for the interference of government (Tom) or the excessive drain
on individual creativity and spirit by the government (Greg), someone would
have invented the perfect building material that could never catch fire so
fire departments would be unecessary.

Side note: Benjamin Franklin founded the first volunteer fire departments
in the colonies.

--
Bill Asher
  #230  
Old January 25th 08, 10:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bill C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,199
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 4:48*pm, William Asher wrote:
Bret wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


.
com.

..


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the
fire department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything
else i

s
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department
doesn't fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the
absolute truth of your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.


If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.


The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.


What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.


It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.


Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness


"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.


I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.


Bret


Bret:

Were it not for the interference of government (Tom) or the excessive drain
on individual creativity and spirit by the government (Greg), someone would
have invented the perfect building material that could never catch fire so
fire departments would be unecessary. *

Side note: *Benjamin Franklin founded the first volunteer fire departments
in the colonies. *

--
Bill Asher- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


More likely someone would've shot them, and me since without the
Guvmint it'd be open season on opinionated, annoying folks. Hell this
place'd be pretty damned quiet wouldn't it?
Bill C
 




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