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#12
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Wheel drag
dvt wrote: Ron Ruff wrote: It amazes me that elite cyclists can get CdA values of less than .20 with the best equipment. That *is* amazing! Unless you're talking about faired HPVs, of course. But 0.20 on a diamond frame setup? Yup... that's how those guys can go so fast! The forums at BikeTechReview have a lot of discussions about aero position and CdA. 0.20 is very good but not impossible these days... |
#13
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Wheel drag
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#14
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Wheel drag
wrote: Scott wrote: wrote: There is no danger of me winning my main event, but the 4 events I am going to concentrate on next season are all over 250km. These are more or less big team time trials (without aero bars) where up to 30 riders start per team, and the best 10 riders' times count toward the team competition. Folks get "used up" along the way, but I'd like to be one of those who finish with the lead group. In the 540km event, the 404's theoretically could save me 1 hour. I won't finish an hour sooner, but I might be able to stick it out the whole distance at speed. Many months ahead to find some money for these wheels... Joseph Well, now that we know you're not talking about differences between wheels during a TT-style event, the differences become even less important. The benefits of aero wheels are greatly reduced when riding in a pack. If your team of riders isn't riding 'on the rivet' as they say, in full team time trial mode, you'll probably recognize no appreciable benefit whatsoever. We will be in rows of 2. The road is open to traffic so we can only spread across one lane for crosswinds. There is always wind. On the flat sections it will be expected of me to be one of the riders in the pull rotation. I get to daft on climbs. I expect to have as much as 2 hours total (of 15) spent at the very front. Perhaps I will not get too much benefit further back while "resting" but out front it will certainly help. And if I can limit the amount of my reserves I burn up while at the front, I increase my chances of being able to have some juice left over to stick with the group for some of the last hills. Not "on the rivet," but a lot more structured than a pack. I wonder what that means. Joseph Are you saying you're not familiar with the term 'on the rivet'? It's a slang term implying that you're going all out, max effort, suffering so badly you find yourself sliding up to the nose of the saddle (where they used to have rivets, back in the day) trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of your pedalstroke. If my hunch is correct, considering that you're talking about a very long event, you're likely to be pacing yourself to such a relatively low power output (relative to your max) that what little aero benefit you receive will be negligible toward your desired outcome of saving your reserves. But, hey, you apparently have your mind made up and you're looking for validation of your decision to buy new wheels. Who needs validation, anyway. Just buy your new wheels and be happy. I can hook you up with a set of Reynolds DV tubular wheels, very lightly used (3 crits), for waaay less than current retail. Email me directly if you're interested. Scott |
#15
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Wheel drag
Scott wrote: wrote: Scott wrote: wrote: There is no danger of me winning my main event, but the 4 events I am going to concentrate on next season are all over 250km. These are more or less big team time trials (without aero bars) where up to 30 riders start per team, and the best 10 riders' times count toward the team competition. Folks get "used up" along the way, but I'd like to be one of those who finish with the lead group. In the 540km event, the 404's theoretically could save me 1 hour. I won't finish an hour sooner, but I might be able to stick it out the whole distance at speed. Many months ahead to find some money for these wheels... Joseph Well, now that we know you're not talking about differences between wheels during a TT-style event, the differences become even less important. The benefits of aero wheels are greatly reduced when riding in a pack. If your team of riders isn't riding 'on the rivet' as they say, in full team time trial mode, you'll probably recognize no appreciable benefit whatsoever. We will be in rows of 2. The road is open to traffic so we can only spread across one lane for crosswinds. There is always wind. On the flat sections it will be expected of me to be one of the riders in the pull rotation. I get to daft on climbs. I expect to have as much as 2 hours total (of 15) spent at the very front. Perhaps I will not get too much benefit further back while "resting" but out front it will certainly help. And if I can limit the amount of my reserves I burn up while at the front, I increase my chances of being able to have some juice left over to stick with the group for some of the last hills. Not "on the rivet," but a lot more structured than a pack. I wonder what that means. Joseph Are you saying you're not familiar with the term 'on the rivet'? It's a slang term implying that you're going all out, max effort, suffering so badly you find yourself sliding up to the nose of the saddle (where they used to have rivets, back in the day) trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of your pedalstroke. If my hunch is correct, considering that you're talking about a very long event, you're likely to be pacing yourself to such a relatively low power output (relative to your max) that what little aero benefit you receive will be negligible toward your desired outcome of saving your reserves. But, hey, you apparently have your mind made up and you're looking for validation of your decision to buy new wheels. Who needs validation, anyway. Just buy your new wheels and be happy. I can hook you up with a set of Reynolds DV tubular wheels, very lightly used (3 crits), for waaay less than current retail. Email me directly if you're interested. Scott I figured out the term from the context of your post. I was wondering what the effects of the deep dish wheels in the group would be. One of the reasons I am considering the 404's or perhaps Mavic is I need something with a metal rim. It rains and is so gritty around here, pure carbon would get worn out real fast. And since they are so expensive, I plan to use them alot. A few other I know may be interested in some Reynolds DV's. I'll see. Joseph |
#16
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Wheel drag
Ron Ruff wrote: wrote: We will be in rows of 2. The road is open to traffic so we can only spread across one lane for crosswinds. There is always wind. If you have a strong cross wind you should be in a series of double echelons, then. One of the problems is that our group is from a wide geographic area which makes practicing as a complete group difficult to arrange. So things that can be logistically complicated on the road may be avoided due to lack of sufficient practice. This is one of the topics under discussion. The whole tactical side has not been decided yet. One of the ideas is to have 3 groups. The first group pulls the first 1/3 which is uphill, the next group pulls the next 1/3 which is flat, and then last group "the finishers" pull the last 1/3 which is rolling with some short steep climbs. On the flat sections it will be expected of me to be one of the riders in the pull rotation. I get to daft on climbs. I expect to have as much as 2 hours total (of 15) spent at the very front. Perhaps I will not get too much benefit further back while "resting" but out front it will certainly help. And if I can limit the amount of my reserves I burn up while at the front, I increase my chances of being able to have some juice left over to stick with the group for some of the last hills. Your thinking seems pretty sound. One problem with deep rims though, is that they will be harder to control in a crosswind... make sure you have plenty of experience on them before the race. I plan to get my money's worth out of whatver wheel I end up with. I'll make sure I have plenty of practice. Since I am pretty heavy, that should make me a little less susceptible to getting blown around that much. What do you estimate the average speed to be? The goal is 38.5 kmh for the 540km ride and 40+ for the 250km rides. On the flats when I am to be helping with the pulling will be about 40-45kmh. I'd consider going with deep aluminum rims and oval spokes if you want to save money... maybe upgrade later if it seems warranted. Also make sure your clothing and helmet is the best it can be. Clothes is pretty straight forward. Tight with no flapping. Helmets is a more difficult propoosition. Any suggestions? It has to be something that can be worn for 20 hours and not be a waste when I'm fried and keep looking down, unable to look straight ahead the whole time. I'll probably stick with my normal LAS. Joseph |
#17
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Wheel drag
wrote:
[...] Clothes is pretty straight forward. Tight with no flapping. Helmets is a more difficult propoosition. Any suggestions? It has to be something that can be worn for 20 hours and not be a waste when I'm fried and keep looking down, unable to look straight ahead the whole time. I'll probably stick with my normal LAS. Joseph From http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3574 "Most think that the frame matters the most, wheels next, and helmet last. Some even think that the components come before the helmet. In reality, a well designed aero-helmet will save you more time (power) than anything else. The drag difference between a vented road helmet and an aero-helmet is 2-4 times larger than the difference between a good aero-wheelset and a 32-spoked wheelset." Maybe looking for a more aero helmet could be worth it in your case. Francesco |
#18
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Wheel drag
On 22 Nov 2005 00:45:41 -0800, wrote:
One of the problems is that our group is from a wide geographic area which makes practicing as a complete group difficult to arrange. So things that can be logistically complicated on the road may be avoided due to lack of sufficient practice. This is one of the topics under discussion. The whole tactical side has not been decided yet. One of the ideas is to have 3 groups. The first group pulls the first 1/3 which is uphill, the next group pulls the next 1/3 which is flat, and then last group "the finishers" pull the last 1/3 which is rolling with some short steep climbs. What event is this? Is it in Scandanavia? JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#19
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Wheel drag
Francesco Devittori wrote: wrote: [...] Clothes is pretty straight forward. Tight with no flapping. Helmets is a more difficult propoosition. Any suggestions? It has to be something that can be worn for 20 hours and not be a waste when I'm fried and keep looking down, unable to look straight ahead the whole time. I'll probably stick with my normal LAS. Joseph From http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3574 "Most think that the frame matters the most, wheels next, and helmet last. Some even think that the components come before the helmet. In reality, a well designed aero-helmet will save you more time (power) than anything else. The drag difference between a vented road helmet and an aero-helmet is 2-4 times larger than the difference between a good aero-wheelset and a 32-spoked wheelset." Maybe looking for a more aero helmet could be worth it in your case. Francesco That article doesn't really apply to the typical rider. They're talking about minimizing drag on a pro cyclist that has the benefit of wind tunnel testing and R&D to design a helmet to fit the specific rider's profile. Any 'off the shelf' aero helmet will have almost no appreciable gain for the typical rider not riding in his optimal aero position, and will likely be very poorly ventilated as well. |
#20
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Wheel drag
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On 22 Nov 2005 00:45:41 -0800, wrote: One of the problems is that our group is from a wide geographic area which makes practicing as a complete group difficult to arrange. So things that can be logistically complicated on the road may be avoided due to lack of sufficient practice. This is one of the topics under discussion. The whole tactical side has not been decided yet. One of the ideas is to have 3 groups. The first group pulls the first 1/3 which is uphill, the next group pulls the next 1/3 which is flat, and then last group "the finishers" pull the last 1/3 which is rolling with some short steep climbs. What event is this? Is it in Scandanavia? JT Yes, it is in Norway: http://www.styrkeproven.no/styrk2003/index_en.shtml Come join the fun! We could use another ex-messenger, NYC rider on the squad! The racing scene isn't very well developed in Norway, so lots of folk concentrate on these "tour" rides. Quite a bit different from pack racing where folks attack on climbs to drop people. These rides are all about consistency and team work. There are regular bike races too, but since the fields are so small, it isn't divided up into cat II,III, etc so often. This means only the best show up because other folks don't want to get punished so bad. Which means even fewer show up next time. Vicious circle. So the rest of us do these tour rides. Joseph |
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