#81
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On Jul 20, 10:27 am, SMS wrote:
On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote: It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also, some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of a slow human on foot. This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers have also observed). A human that moves quickly (and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that moves slowly. Of course this all changes when the human is on a motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this. The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather, plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic, trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves. I don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence. Yes.. Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff: Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less disturbing than people on foot. Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes. Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing. Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight, ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and Research, 1995. Gutzwiller, et al, 1994. On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974. in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread. Etc. |
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#82
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RobertH wrote:
On Jul 14, 2:38 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote: On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Your link doesn't work. It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also, some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of a slow human on foot. Generally speaking, mtn bikers have some negative impact on wildlife. But hikers are in no position to get all self-righteous about the negative impact caused by mtn. bikers. That would be very hypocritical, based on all available evidence. Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. Horses were introduced to N. America by the Spanish in the 1500s. What is your "PhD" all about? meh. Both natural flora and fauna kill humans too: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,7468891.story -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#84
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In article
, RobertH wrote: On Jul 14, 2:38 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: [...] Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. Horses were introduced to N. America by the Spanish in the 1500s. Both are true statements. -- Michael Press |
#85
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On 7/20/2011 9:47 AM, RobertH wrote:
snip Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff: Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less disturbing than people on foot. Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes. Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing. Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight, ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and Research, 1995. Gutzwiller, et al, 1994. On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974. in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread. Etc. Just confirms what everyone already knew. It's not surprising that facts, logic, and science are of no interest to criminals. Criminals don't read much and are not well-informed. Many cannot read at all. |
#86
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On 7/20/2011 1:09 AM, RobertH wrote:
[...] What is your (Vandeman) "PhD" all about? Allegedly [1]: ------------ From the UCLA library: Author/Name: Vandeman, Michael Joseph, 1943- Title: Chemical description of food taste preferences among Black-, Japanese-, and Mexican-Americans derived by means of nonmetric multidimensional scaling / by Michael Joseph Vandeman. Published/distributed: 1973. Physical description: vii, 109 leaves : ill. Subject(s): Food preferences. Food --Research. Taste. Genre/form: Dissertations, Academic --UCLA --Psychology. Record ID: 3531915 Collection: UCLA Libraries and Collections Location: SRLF (Select "Request an item" from the menu bar) Call Number: LD791.9.P9 V281 [Barcode: D0003805421] Status: Not Checked Out Number of Items: 1 ------------- [1] http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=634668&page=13. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#87
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On 7/20/2011 1:45 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: RobertH wrote: What is your "PhD" all about? Psychology/Psychometrics, LOL! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#88
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On Jul 19, 11:54*pm, RobertH wrote:
On Jul 18, 9:00 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: BS. I wrote the ONLY scientific paper on the subject. Every allegedly "scientific" paper written by a mountain biker was fatally biased and dishonest. I read these and they didn't seem all that fatally biased or dishonest: Then you know NOTHING about science. See http://mjvande.nfshost.com/scb7.htm for the details. IMPACTS OF EXPERIMENTALLY APPLIED MOUNTAIN BIKING AND HIKING ON VEGETATION AND SOIL 2001 article by Thurston and Reader, Environmental Management. Study showed potentially severe impacts from both activities, and similar recovery times. EROSIONAL IMPACT OF HIKERS, HORSES, MOTORCYCLES, AND OFF-ROAD BICYCLES ON MOUNTAIN TRAILS IN MONTANA Wilson and Seney, Mountain Research and Development, 1994. If we're going to be really honest with ourselves, and I don't suppose we are, we'll have to admit that the trail itself is an unholy unnatural gash through the wilderness. (This also confirmed by scientific research.) Worrying so much about trail damage is kind of fundamentally bogus as an environmentalist cause. Yes, of course. The mouyntain bikers think "conservation" means "preserving trails". If you really care about wildlife, destroy the trail entirely, then keep your animal-terrorizing self at home and out of the wilderness.. I agree, I have been saying that for 15 years. Where have you been? |
#89
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On Jul 20, 9:27*am, SMS wrote:
On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote: It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also, some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of a slow human on foot. This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers have also observed). A human that moves quickly (and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that moves slowly. You just fabricated that. There is no research supporting that. On the contrary, Wisdom et al showed that mountain bikers have a greater impact on willdife than either hikers or equestrians. Of course this all changes when the human is on a motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this. The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather, plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic, trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves. You just fabricated that. We have no problem sharing trails with mountain bikers. It's only BIKES that we want banned. I don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence. You are full of it. You obviously know NOTHING about that research. |
#90
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On Jul 20, 9:47*am, RobertH wrote:
On Jul 20, 10:27 am, SMS wrote: On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote: It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also, some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of a slow human on foot. This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers have also observed). A human that moves quickly (and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that moves slowly. Of course this all changes when the human is on a motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this. The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather, plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic, trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves. I don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence. Yes.. Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff: Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less disturbing than people on foot. Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes. Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing. Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight, ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and Research, 1995. Gutzwiller, et al, 1994. On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974. in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread. I refuted that biased "research" years ago: http://mjvande.nfshost.com/scb7..htm. |
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