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  #81  
Old July 20th 11, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
RobertH
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On Jul 20, 10:27 am, SMS wrote:
On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote:

It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby
creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed
is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is
in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also,
some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on
foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of
a slow human on foot.


This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers
have also observed). A human that moves quickly
(and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that
moves slowly. Of course this all changes when the human is on a
motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to
minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain
bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this.

The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather,
plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic,
trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason
that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely
nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and
everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves. I
don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's
annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest
about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife
impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence.



Yes..

Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff:

Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less
disturbing than people on foot.

Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed
hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes.

Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing.

Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight,
ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and
Research, 1995.

Gutzwiller, et al, 1994.

On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974.

in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread. Etc.
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  #82  
Old July 20th 11, 06:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
AMuzi
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RobertH wrote:
On Jul 14, 2:38 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote:



On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:
On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:
Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.
MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.
This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.
India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.

You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)


Your link doesn't work.

It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby
creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed
is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is
in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also,
some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on
foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of
a slow human on foot.

Generally speaking, mtn bikers have some negative impact on wildlife.
But hikers are in no position to get all self-righteous about the
negative impact caused by mtn. bikers. That would be very
hypocritical, based on all available evidence.

Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to.


Horses were introduced to N. America by the Spanish in the 1500s.

What is your "PhD" all about?


meh. Both natural flora and fauna kill humans too:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,7468891.story

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #84  
Old July 20th 11, 11:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Michael Press
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Posts: 9,202
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In article
,
RobertH wrote:

On Jul 14, 2:38 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:


[...]

Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to.


Horses were introduced to N. America by the Spanish in the 1500s.


Both are true statements.

--
Michael Press
  #85  
Old July 21st 11, 04:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
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On 7/20/2011 9:47 AM, RobertH wrote:

snip

Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff:

Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less
disturbing than people on foot.

Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed
hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes.

Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing.

Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight,
ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and
Research, 1995.

Gutzwiller, et al, 1994.

On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974.

in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread. Etc.


Just confirms what everyone already knew.

It's not surprising that facts, logic, and science are of no interest to
criminals. Criminals don't read much and are not well-informed. Many
cannot read at all.
  #86  
Old July 21st 11, 05:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
T°m Sherm@n
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Posts: 813
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On 7/20/2011 1:09 AM, RobertH wrote:
[...]
What is your (Vandeman) "PhD" all about?


Allegedly [1]:

------------

From the UCLA library:

Author/Name: Vandeman, Michael Joseph, 1943-
Title: Chemical description of food taste preferences among Black-,
Japanese-, and Mexican-Americans derived by means of nonmetric
multidimensional scaling / by Michael Joseph Vandeman.
Published/distributed: 1973.
Physical description: vii, 109 leaves : ill.
Subject(s): Food preferences.
Food --Research.
Taste.
Genre/form: Dissertations, Academic --UCLA --Psychology.
Record ID: 3531915
Collection: UCLA Libraries and Collections
Location: SRLF (Select "Request an item" from the menu bar)
Call Number: LD791.9.P9 V281 [Barcode: D0003805421]
Status: Not Checked Out
Number of Items: 1
-------------

[1] http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=634668&page=13.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #87  
Old July 21st 11, 06:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
T°m Sherm@n
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Posts: 813
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On 7/20/2011 1:45 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote:

RobertH wrote:

What is your "PhD" all about?


Psychology/Psychometrics,


LOL!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #88  
Old July 21st 11, 07:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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Posts: 1,755
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On Jul 19, 11:54*pm, RobertH wrote:
On Jul 18, 9:00 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:

BS. I wrote the ONLY scientific paper on the subject. Every allegedly
"scientific" paper written by a mountain biker was fatally biased and
dishonest.


I read these and they didn't seem all that fatally biased or
dishonest:


Then you know NOTHING about science. See http://mjvande.nfshost.com/scb7.htm
for the details.

IMPACTS OF EXPERIMENTALLY APPLIED MOUNTAIN BIKING AND HIKING ON
VEGETATION AND SOIL 2001 article by Thurston and Reader, Environmental
Management. Study showed potentially severe impacts from both
activities, and similar recovery times.

EROSIONAL IMPACT OF HIKERS, HORSES, MOTORCYCLES, AND OFF-ROAD BICYCLES
ON MOUNTAIN TRAILS IN MONTANA Wilson and Seney, Mountain Research and
Development, 1994.

If we're going to be really honest with ourselves, and I don't suppose
we are, we'll have to admit that the trail itself is an unholy
unnatural gash through the wilderness. (This also confirmed by
scientific research.) Worrying so much about trail damage is kind of
fundamentally bogus as an environmentalist cause.


Yes, of course. The mouyntain bikers think "conservation" means
"preserving trails".

If you really care about wildlife, destroy the trail entirely, then
keep your animal-terrorizing self at home and out of the wilderness..


I agree, I have been saying that for 15 years. Where have you been?
  #89  
Old July 21st 11, 07:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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Posts: 1,755
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On Jul 20, 9:27*am, SMS wrote:
On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote:

It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby
creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed
is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is
in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also,
some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on
foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of
a slow human on foot.


This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers
have also observed). A human that moves quickly
(and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that
moves slowly.


You just fabricated that. There is no research supporting that. On the
contrary, Wisdom et al showed that mountain bikers have a greater
impact on willdife than either hikers or equestrians.

Of course this all changes when the human is on a
motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to
minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain
bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this.

The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather,
plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic,
trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason
that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely
nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and
everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves.


You just fabricated that. We have no problem sharing trails with
mountain bikers. It's only BIKES that we want banned.

I
don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's
annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest
about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife
impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence.


You are full of it. You obviously know NOTHING about that research.
  #90  
Old July 21st 11, 08:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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Posts: 1,755
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On Jul 20, 9:47*am, RobertH wrote:
On Jul 20, 10:27 am, SMS wrote:





On 7/19/2011 11:09 PM, RobertH wrote:


It's true that mtn bikers reach farther into the woods, thereby
creating more impact than they would on a short ride. However, speed
is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of wildlife impact. A hiker is
in the area longer, and therefore creates a longer-term impact. Also,
some species have been shown to recognize the threat of a human on
foot, while basically ignoring vehicles. This multiplies the impact of
a slow human on foot.


This is what all the scientists have found (and what docents and rangers
have also observed). A human that moves quickly
(and quietly) through an area is far less disruptive than a human that
moves slowly. Of course this all changes when the human is on a
motorized vehicle or riding an animal. Amusingly, if you wanted to
minimize wildlife impact you would ban hikers and allow only mountain
bikes, but I don't see any mountain bikers lobbying for this.


The bottom line is that whether using boots made of rubber, leather,
plastic, and metal, or a bicycle made of metal, rubber, and plastic,
trail users have an impact both on the trail and on wildlife. The reason
that a few hikers are so opposed to mountain bikes has absolutely
nothing to do with the relative impact on trails and wildlife and
everything to do with preferring to have the trails to themselves. I
don't blame them for not wanting mountain bikes on the trail, it's
annoying to have to move over to let them pass. At least most are honest
about it and don't make up stories about trail damage or wildlife
impact, which is wise considering all the scientific evidence.


Yes..

Here are some more ref's if anyone is interested in this stuff:

Bennett and Zuelke, 1999. Showed passing or stopping vehicles less
disturbing than people on foot.

Papouchis, Singer and Sloan, 2001. Desert bighorn sheep study showed
hikers have more impact than vehicles or mountain bikes.

Spahr, 1990 grad. thesis, on eagle flushing, walkers most disturbing.

Knight and Cole, "Wildlife Responses to Recreationists," in Knight,
ed., Wildlife and Rescreationists: Coexistence through Management and
Research, 1995.

Gutzwiller, et al, 1994.

On the outsized impact from horses: Nagy and Scotter, 1974.

in addition to the two already mentioned up-thread.


I refuted that biased "research" years ago: http://mjvande.nfshost.com/scb7..htm.
 




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