Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.

On 8 Jan, 15:48, wrote:
On Jan 8, 3:42*pm, JNugent wrote:



calum wrote:
JNugent wrote:
The incident in question *did* take place in London, didn't it?
The incident did, but your assertions began with "The driver of *a*
motor vehicle..." suggesting this applied to all motorists.

You are wrong.

I wasn't for one moment suggesting that it applied to motorists in Pakistan,
Colombia, Burkino Faso or Scotland.

The incident took place in England.

I still maintain that the driver need not answer questions about his
demeanour on the road or the start & finish points of his journey.
Nor do I believe that passengers in a motor vehicle are obliged to
identify themselves or explain their presence in the vehicle (with the
exceptions stated in my earlier post).

I'm happy to let you think what you like.

Yet you seem reluctant to substantiate your claim. There is no
obligation (yet) to account for yourself to the police if you are not
suspected of any crime. They may ask, you needn't answer.

Such naivety. The police can and will arrest you for refusing to give
your name and address, and just about anything else they can dream up
on the spot whether legal or not.

"2.1 Giving your details

Other than under road traffic and anti-social behaviour legislation,
you do not commit an offence in English law by refusing to give your
name and address to the police. However there are certain situations
where the police may arrest you if they cannot establish your name and
address, and if you are arrested and charged with an offence you will
be unlikely to be granted bail unless they can establish these
details.

2.2 Prior to Arrest

The general rule to remember is that you never have to give your name
and address to the police prior to arrest, subject to the following 3
exceptions:

1. where the police reasonably suspect you of a non-arrestable
offence, and require your name and address for the service of a
summons (Section 25 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE));
2. where you are the driver of a vehicle;
3. where the police say they suspect you of “anti-social
behaviour."

Then, of course, there is the plethora of anti-terrorism laws which
they might also choose to use.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
One man's democracy is another man's regime.

Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?

On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I,we just driven past West Croydon Station, there appears to be a
'crital mass' of red double decker buses there, do you think they are
protesting?

Francis

On Jan 8, 4:43*pm, JNugent wrote:

"JNugent" wrote in message

Calum wrote:
Please cite the applicable legislation (act(s) and section(s)).

JNugent wrote:
Now read this very carefully, because I shall type it only once.

snipped

"I can't" would have done.

What I was pointing out in relation to your paragraph on what the
police can question drivers and passengers about was that the police
may ask you just about anything but only certain specific instances
*require* you to provide an answer. Your explanation could easily
have misled another reader into thinking otherwise.

I have no intention of descending to your level
and giving the verbatim details in each case. It's all there if you
search
for it.

Seeking evidence from the author for his assertions is standard
practice in newsgroups or other debates.
You are normally pretty accurate and thorough when it comes to
legislation so it came as a surprise to me that you didn't
substantiate your statements when asked.

I throughly recommend that the next time you
are stopped by the police whilst driving (whther in Scotland or south
of the
border), you have the courage of your convictions and refuse to utter
a word,
to get out of your vehicle or even to stop for very long.

I would always comply with a lawful requirement by a police officer.
That does not mean that I will always do anything they tell me to
without question, or answer whatever questions they may ask beyond
those I am obliged to answer. I'm not afraid to ask for
justification for their actions.

For example, 12 years ago I refused to provide a sample of breath for
a breath test. I was stopped at a roadside checkpoint by a traffic
motorcycle cop and asked for my driving licence, which I produced. He
was stopping every 10th car or so for a routine check. During the
check he asked me to provide a sample of breath for a breath test and
I asked him what led him to suspect I was driving under the
influence. He agreed there was nothing wrong with my manner of
driving and no smell of alcohol from me or any other evidence that
could lead to him to that conclusion, it was "just routine checking".
As I was on my way to a business appointment and didn't want to be
delayed any further, I declined and carried on with my journey. It
was all very amicable.

And just last month, a policeman stopped me in the street after I'd
taken some architecture photographs of a building opposite the police
headquarters. He was arrogant from the outset and demanded my name,
address, occupation, and place of work and an explanation of why I was
photographing city buildings. As he could not justify his demands I
refused to give him any personal information. His attitude became
aggressive and I was threatened that refusal was an offence and could
lead to my arrest. I knew this to be complete ******** and I told him
I would not answer. He summoned support from a senior officer who was
standing nearby and I told him what happened and why I wouldn't supply
my personal information. He accepted my explanation, did not support
his colleague, and I went about my business of taking photographs
around town.

The police can often (deliberately) make it appear that you have no
choice but to answer all questions and comply with certain demands, so
I think it's important to be able to distinguish between when such
questions and demands are lawful and create an obligation on a person
and when they do not.

Calum

On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?

I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason
for your question, Brim?

--
Critical Mass London
http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
"More bikes, fewer cars!".

Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as
possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?

I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason
for your question, Brim?

For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there
for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on
a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass".

On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as
possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?

I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason
for your question, Brim?

For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there
for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on
a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass".

You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is
applied to a whole load of things.

A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet
up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists
might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common
CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an
outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic.

BTW, on a previous point, What driver coming in from a side road is
going to dare to try to ram a car convoy as some drivers do to
cyclists' CMs?

--
Critical Mass London
http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
"More bikes, fewer cars!".

Doug wrote:
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

You see! Motorists do it too!

"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew
my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on
their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?

Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as
possible?

I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?

Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...

Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I
would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.

What was the reason for them being there Doug?

I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the
reason for your question, Brim?

For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were
not there for the same reason as those who participate in the
monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a
"critical mass".

You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is
applied to a whole load of things.

In the present context, and the only one I'm interested in, it is the group
of people who meet to take a bicycle ride through London.

A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet
up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists
might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common
CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an
outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic.

People driving cars do not set out with the intention of delaying other road
users and are usually travelling from one place to another, unlike the large
group of cyclists who congregate in central London and then wander aimlessly
about with the sole intention of causing delay and annoyance to other
people.

Doug wrote:
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:
You see! Motorists do it too!
"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?
Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as
possible?
I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?
Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...
Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.
What was the reason for them being there Doug?
I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason
for your question, Brim?
For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there
for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on
a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass".

You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is
applied to a whole load of things.

It is applied to a load of things , it's social science term , and it
seems that you have again decided to take a word with a defined meaning
and humpty dumpty it into something else.


A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet
up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists
might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common
CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an
outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic.

I think Wikipedia explains best why your version above is wrong ...

"Critical mass is a sociodynamic term to describe the existence of
sufficient momentum in a social system such that the momentum becomes
self-sustaining and fuels further growth."

Your version doesn't match the above and it certainly doesn't match
George Bliss's version.

As an aside, as it's been shown that you know less than bugger all about
the science behind either the enviromental or social science issues that
you claim to support , could you please shut up so that those that do
know something can get somehwere with their work without you ****ing
away any good will that may be available? Apart from being the Sec of
some obscure ranting organisations on London, what actually are your
qualifications in the fields on which you pontificate?

Marc wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote:
Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:
You see! Motorists do it too!
"Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my
attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their
windows driving along the embankments tooting horns.
Yes but was it organized?
Was it a demonstration?
Was it a procession?
Was it anything to do with this NG?
Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as
possible?
I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the
middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their
heads?
Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a
"critical mass"...
Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would
call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'.
What was the reason for them being there Doug?
I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason
for your question, Brim?
For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were
not there
for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle
ride on
a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass".

You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is
applied to a whole load of things.

It is applied to a load of things , it's social science term , and it
seems that you have again decided to take a word with a defined meaning
and humpty dumpty it into something else.


A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet
up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists
might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common
CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an
outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic.

I think Wikipedia explains best why your version above is wrong ...

"Critical mass is a sociodynamic term to describe the existence of
sufficient momentum in a social system such that the momentum becomes
self-sustaining and fuels further growth."

Your version doesn't match the above and it certainly doesn't match
George Bliss's version.

As an aside, as it's been shown that you know less than bugger all about
the science behind either the enviromental or social science issues that
you claim to support , could you please shut up so that those that do
know something can get somehwere with their work without you ****ing
away any good will that may be available?

I think Duhg gets told these things by random people without any
background and believes them. I have a dog like that...

--
John Wright

I used to drive a car a lot also. Duhg Bollen.

It didn't happen. The whole thing was fabricated in a movie studio by
Jewish film directors using realistic dummies to gain international
sympathy and thus grab and retain a chunk of Arab territory and
accumulate weapons of mass destruction with help from a complicit US.
Duhg Bollens view of the Holocaust.

Duhg Bollen promised a report on how Vince can reduce his carbon
emissions by moving in November 2007. We're still waiting.